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"Strange looking ammo feed on Grant tank" Topic


16 Posts

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1,200 hits since 1 Oct 2019
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

d88mm194001 Oct 2019 3:00 p.m. PST

I've never seen this type of ammo feed on any WW2 MG:

picture

It's on the top turret, on the .30 cal.
I never noticed it all of these years or is it fiction?

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse01 Oct 2019 3:03 p.m. PST

I've never seen an ammo drum like that on any AFV ?

rustymusket01 Oct 2019 3:07 p.m. PST

It is an Israeli conversion. (Just kidding. I have no idea.)

Personal logo StoneMtnMinis Supporting Member of TMP01 Oct 2019 3:24 p.m. PST

I have fired the 30cal many times. It was always belt fed. A drum like that pictured wouldn't have enough rounds to be useful.

Could it perhaps be the ammunition drum for an aviation 30cal used in fighters? But I'm pretty sure those were belt fed also.

Major General Stanley01 Oct 2019 3:50 p.m. PST

This turned up, link but no explanation

Morning Scout01 Oct 2019 5:06 p.m. PST

British Grant

picture

from histomil.com

rmaker01 Oct 2019 5:08 p.m. PST

Could be intended as a take-up drum for a used fabric belt, but by 1941, the disintegrating link belt was universally used. Alternatively, some free aircraft mounts packaged the belt inside a drum (to keep it out of the way wen the gun was moved around), but I don't know that those were ever used in ground or vehicle mounts.

DisasterWargamer Supporting Member of TMP01 Oct 2019 9:04 p.m. PST

Always thought the Browning 1919 was only belt fed

Perhaps an added piece – not original equipment?

BillyNM01 Oct 2019 10:46 p.m. PST

How about this?
link

emckinney01 Oct 2019 11:07 p.m. PST

It's a belt-feeder, just made up as a reel. You can see the rounds in one photo.

It's not a drum: drums have a spring of some sort to push the ammo forward. The reel is just rotated by the action pull the ammo belt in.

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP02 Oct 2019 8:01 a.m. PST

Agreed. It looks like a belt wrapped around a spool.

emckinney02 Oct 2019 2:36 p.m. PST

Could be many reasons, but it looks as though the ammo box, which was mounted parallel to the bottom of the MG, might have interfered with the commander's visibility when he just stuck his head fully out of the turret. The high-mounted reel was well out of the way.

The reel probably also made it easier to "top off" a partially-expended belt. With the ammo boxes, you either replaced the entire box, or you clipped a new belt to the old one, carefully folder the belt into the box, and then unclipped the remainder of the new belt. The folding was the annoying part. With the reel, you released the belt from the feed, clipped the new belt to the old, turned the reel until it was full (the weight of the rounds in the new belt tensions the reel), and unclip the remainder of the new belt, leaving a bit extra hanging off the reel to connect to the feed.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP03 Oct 2019 11:28 a.m. PST

always wondered this.

If one single round was missing there would be no pressure to load the next, I imagine.

Did the gun then stop firing, whether a 30 calibre in Tunisia, an MG42 in Cassino or an M60 in Hue? OK easy enough to get it going again, but must have been a worrying few seconds fearing instead a jammed round.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP04 Oct 2019 9:29 a.m. PST

Since worked out that, by then, the self disintegrating belt was in use, not the webbed effort. A missing round and the belt comes apart into two pieces.

Mark 1 Supporting Member of TMP04 Oct 2019 12:35 p.m. PST

If one single round was missing there would be no pressure to load the next, I imagine.

Pressure from the feed, or action of the gun. Different questions.

Did the gun then stop firing, whether a 30 calibre in Tunisia, an MG42 in Cassino or an M60 in Hue?

I don't think any of those cases can HAVE a round missing in the belt. So kind of a moot question.

There are two components to the feed system to be understood in order to figure out the answer.

First is: How does the cycling of the gun work?
Second is: How does the ammo feed work?

These questions will have different answers in different guns, and so you will see different results.

For most machine guns, the cycling action is either gas or recoil operation. Sub-machine guns (or machine pistols), with smaller lighter cartridges often rely on blowback as their mechanism. All of these three mechanisms rely upon a round being fired to generate the force that will be used in the mechanism to extract the empty cartridge, re-cock the striker, and chamber (load) the next round.

If, for any reason, a round fails to fire, then the next round will not be fed in by the mechanism, and the gun will stop firing. Doesn't matter what the feed mechanism (the answer to the second question) is. A dud round, a missing round, or a mis-feed of any sort will stop the automatic fire of the gun. Manual cycling of the action will then be required to re-start automatic firing.

This was not terribly uncommon. You will often see machine gunners working the bolts of their guns (pulling and releasing) to manually work the action and feed the next round when the gun stops shooting.

About the only exception to this are chain-guns (like the US 25mm auto cannon in the Bradley and LAV light vehicles) and rotary ("gatling") guns, like the hand-cranked Gatling guns of the late 1800s and the modern Vulcan electric rotary guns in most current US gun-armed aircraft. In those cases, the mechanism of cycling the gun uses an external source of power, and so the gun continues cycling even if one round fails to fire.

The ammo feed is a separate question. Most magazine mechanisms use a push plate under tension from a spring to push the rounds into position to be fed by the gun mechanism. Many machine guns use belt-feed, which relies on the rounds being pulled into the mechanism by the belt which connects them all.

Cloth belts retained their integrity even if a round was missing. You still have a belt even if it has an empty sleeve in it. So it was possible to have a gap in the ammo in the belt, requiring a manual cycling of the gun to get it firing again. Disintegrating metal belts don't work this way. Each link is spring-loaded against the cartridge case. Remove the cartridge and the link separates from the rest of the belt and falls to the ground as a bit of waist metal. The only way to have a "missing round" in the belt is to have an empty cartridge or dud round in the belt. There can be no empty space in the belt, as there is no way to connect a one cartridge in a belt to another cartridge in a belt over, through or around an empty space.

Spring-loaded magazines are also not 100% reliable feeds. It is possible for the action of the gun to miss the round at the top of the magazine. In the case of a gas, recoil, or blowback operated gun this will again cause a mis-fire, and the action will need to be manually cycled.

The original Gatling guns were magazine fed, but without a spring. Instead they relied on gravity to cause the rounds in the magazine (above the gun) to fall into position as the gun cycled. This was not a particularly reliable form of feed. But the hand-crank action of the Gatling gun kept it firing despite most mis-feeds, so in the end it was a reasonably reliable gun, even if it was kind of like "POW POW POW click POW POW click click POW POW POW" rather than the "Ratatatatat" we expect from a modern machine gun.


-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP05 Oct 2019 7:01 a.m. PST

Now I have learnt much there. Many thanks indeed!

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