"We must not simply announce new products" Topic

" A picture with an actual review rather than just a link should be fine since that's part of what a message board is…."

Do you know how many "reviews" of new miniatures are there?

I'm a veteran searching them… not more than 0,00001% have reviews…

So … you lost near the totally of the new products (who are not in the Hobbie News)…

Wait and see….

Amicalement
Armand

RIP. I don't know then, this entire new rule seems to A) have come out of nowhere, B) seems to have been instigated by someone (or a few someones) and C) seems to be really bad overall for the board as a whole.

Hopefully, Bill will reverse his decision if he sees it has this sort of negative effect.

If you do follow the links back it seems to have kicked off with a "troll" posting, by a name banned from TMP or someone using that nom de plume, which is equally grounds for getting chucked off.

Hobby News is not packed with information, considering the number of message boards on TMP. See how many new postings for the 10 days of September.

A compromise might be this;

1. Publicise this far better
2. Allow paid up advertisers to post on the relevant message boards eg ACW Warfare in Low Earth Orbit
3. As advertising is so cheap, encourage so many more of the big companies to then fork out, with number 2 as the carrot.

OR

4. Get more of us to be supporting members, drop commercially driven advertising completely and scrap the new policy.

So..If a product came out..which wasn´t advertised already here..I bought and painted it within a day of it´s release, I could post the painted Version here but not Name it? Even if someone asked what make it was?

Amazing Thing is, someone, whoever it may be, has used the Name of someone banned and has created so much confusion.
A score of 7 or possibly 8 out of 10 for trolling ?

To me this is a daft rule in more than one way. I want to look though only thoise boards I an interested in. No way am I, Excuse my personal preference" going to plow though tons of "fantasy rubbish" to find one of as few cold war minatures it is absurd to say the least. Will we now have to rely on Tango 01 to pour through tyhe "rubbish" and link to TMP's own pages?

As has been said the utuility of this board is dropping dramatical. If you do a review what is the point if you can't mention the the supplier as its "advertising".

Allowing advertisers to post on the specialist boards would make sence. Paying to put stuff on a board nobody with much of a life will have time to plough through potentailly fruilessly lacks undertstanding of the Customer base, Us. If we don't turn up there will be no advertsers. Is it time to go to Facebook or elsewhere? I certainly will be looking at alternatives.

I'll be interested to know what Sho Boki's experiences are as a new paying advertiser and what advantages it gives him now.
If sales increase enough to cover the cost, where he's actually allowed to post, has he got any increased interest from customers as a result?
Perhaps a review of the "advertiser experience" is in order.
If it's positive it might encourage others to make the jump.
If it's negative then perhaps it's time to rethink the changes.

First "advantage" is rule that you are allowed to talk only about mine and Baccus figures. ;-)

Also one people already clicked my banner.. I myself don't seen this banner yet.

I never use the front page. I only go through it briefly to log in and out, otherwise I have a direct link to the moderns forums. I suspect I'm not alone.

I can understand the logic and would be prepared to pay for to advertise on the message boards, in the appropriate forum. That's fair.

But the front page?

Let me be honest, I don't think the front page advertisments serve a useful purpose (outside of de facto pictures), because I suspect the vast majority of us are here for the message boards exclusively. I have personally never given the front page advertisements more than a casual glance, ever and I don't believe that is very untypical. Wargamers, in my experience, tend more towards the clique-y than not and often have fairly little interest in things outside their period.

Me personally? I don't have any interest in what the chaps who play Napoleonics or WWII are doing, and I'm just as sure most of them don't give a rat's arse about my 144th scifi or starships (with a few exceptions like Tango who seem interested generall, obviously).

(And if "Hobby News" is something more than where the front page stuff is displayed, I have been coming to the boards for six years and I WOULDN'T KNOW WHERE THAT WAS.)

So, speaking as a potential paid advertiser if *I* personally won't go looking through the front page unsorted stuff, why would I expect any potential customers I might be advertising to would? I wouldn't, simply put.

(Heck, this will hit companies with more directly focusses more than larger companies, like Old Glory (not that I think it would do them any favours in the first place), for example, who have a broader range of periods and thus by definition a broader potential customer base and thus a higher chance of catching one of the off-chance. (And me and Old Glory are in entirely different subsets of the market with no overlap.) Me? I'm a niche in a niche market, on the front page I feel like I'd just be literally throwing money away for no useful purpose. So I would not be interested at any point in paying to advertise in the Hobby News section, like, ever.)

I am fairly sure that this policy will see a marked drop in site traffic (and thus point in advertising, let alone in paying to do so, for anyone) – not immediately of course, but I suspect as time goes on, people will just be less inclined to come back. There will be fewer threads posted, so there will be less reason for anyone to bother coming to check the boards (since, as I say, I suspect a lot of people *don't* come to look at Hobby News, nor are they likely to start. I suspect most wargamers just AREN'T interested in news about wargaming generally, but only in their bit of it.)

There are already increasingly fewer threads to my own anecdotal experience, at least in the moderns/cold war/scifi/starships boards. (I just did a very simple check. Just on the main moderns board, in September there have been seven threads posted or replied to. In the same time last year, there were nine, and in 2017 there were thirteen. Now, this is only a single random sample and by itself doesn't prove anything – but I would be interested in the board-wide statistics to see if it was a strue elsewhere.)

Frankly, I think the better option would be to do the exact opposite: scrap Hobby News entirely, and then have everyone pay to advertise on the appropriate forums, where everyone gets a fairer shake of the dice, because a) it won't bloat the one outlet and b) you can at least have some garentee that you are advertising to people who might at least be a little interested.

Edit: I would ALSO like to point out that the only way I knew this at ALL is because UshCha physically came into the room and told me, because he'd been checking the WW2 boards and happened to find a post which linked to this thread. Otherwise, I would have had NO IDEA. A major change like this should have had at the very least a PM sent by Bill to everyone (I know he has the capability, I occasionally get them asking me to become a paid member).

What I think is more telling is this entire thing seems to have come up from a troll post that somehow was taken legitimately like something that people want. I mean it's Bill's site and he can do what he wants but this seems pretty destructive to just spring on people, especially since it appears like there was barely anyone asking for it except an extremely vocal minority.

@Wayniac – I am forced to raise an eyebrow that the bvast majority of the thread everyone in the entire thread said to leave things as they were aside from Bill himself. It, and the manner in which it has been annouced (essentially, it *hasn't*), doesn't engender me with confidence that either the commercial customers nor community interests of the board are being looked after by this annoucement.

…

I'm finding it very hard to conflate this with current politcal events and make a snarky comment, but foirtunately, I think have managed to refrain – oh, poop.

@Aotrs Commander – I think you are spot on that many people only go to their chosen interest boards and will totally miss any posts in TMP Talk.
Even headlines on the front page (Why was this never on the front page?!!!) won't reach everybody.
PMs won't reach everyone as not everyone logs in to read the forum.
A short notice at the top of each of the main boards with a link to the new rules CLEARLY set out on the FAQ page would probably be the best way to make sure everyone knows.
If you are going to have new rules it's very important to make sure EVERYONE is aware of them and that they are set out clearly for reference.

When I decided to cancel our advertising here, Bill told me that as a non-advertiser, I could mention new releases on the forum, but could not mention special sales or promotions. However, he did warn me that the rules on posting about new products might be changing. And they now have.

Personally, I think there is a big difference between me promoting something I have published and someone else saying "hey, look at these rules, I think they are great". Indeed, it strikes me that this type of word of mouth recommendation is what makes any on-line forum worthwhile. If all you get are advertisers promoting their products then they are bound to tell you how great they are, whereas unbiased peer reviews are far more valuable. If these changes mean that this is no longer a truly open forum but rather just a place to discuss just a tiny percentage of the products in the hobby as then I do fear for how much longer people will consider it relevant.

That said, it seems that the new rules are generally being ignored and people are carrying on much as before. In which case why bother?

So the First post about GW contrast paint was now not okay?

But the discussion about it merits or lack there of, was okay?

Is this post okay?

I will again say that I think that this is a very short-sighted policy. I come here to get information about miniatures and terrain building ideas, now that is extremely curtailed. It looks like I will have to get my information elsewhere.
Jeff

Personally, I think there is a big difference between me promoting something I have published and someone else saying "hey, look at these rules, I think they are great". Indeed, it strikes me that this type of word of mouth recommendation is what makes any on-line forum worthwhile. If all you get are advertisers promoting their products then they are bound to tell you how great they are, whereas unbiased peer reviews are far more valuable. If these changes mean that this is no longer a truly open forum but rather just a place to discuss just a tiny percentage of the products in the hobby as then I do fear for how much longer people will consider it relevant.

Precisely this. A paid advertiser will, of course, say their product is the best thing ever and you should buy it right now. An actual review will often have the good and bad and help anyone reading it come to an informed decision.

I know that the main reason I come here is to read reviews and see what products are out there, because historical wargaming is now such a niche hobby (relatively speaking as it's not really commercial, in the USA anyway) that you won't find some of these publishers other than by word-of-mouth (or forum, as the case might be). I know there has been a lot of products (and in fact, historical wargaming in general) that I have discovered only by reading reviews that are linked or by having snippets or models linked in a thread by fellows such as Tango.

Without that, what is the real point of this that you can't get on social media without the hassle?

I guess that I'll be checking out this site more frequently now for hobby news:
wargameterrain.blogspot.com

That said, it seems that the new rules are generally being ignored and people are carrying on much as before. In which case why bother?

Someone posted a KS link earlier, it's been removed so I am guessing the ban is in effect. As misguided as it is…..

Let me again put in my real complaint, copying and pasting what I have put onto a Napoleonic Forum.

But do our friends on every other message board know about this?

"The whole snag is that we have not been told.

Until I posted something on the Napoleonic Forum, none of us knew about this. As you know, this was, overnight, deleted and moved to TMP Talk, where the original message appeared, unnoticed by most, as it, like Hobby News, is not the most popular form for many of us.

This is not a democratic site. That I fully understand and accept. It is the Editor's, that has always been clear. We can take that or leave that. We can support it with a small annual sub or not, yet still participate even if not.

I want to clarify MY (stress MY) understanding yet again, about how you can post about new products. But why should I? I might be wrong.

Why is the editorial staff not responding to any of this?

Why is it always, when anything goes wrong in any organisation, always, always the same complaint?

"We have been sitting here for hours, days, weeks, but no-one has told us a thing"

Come on folks. We value this site and between us all make a contribution of some sort to its success. Respond to us in a way that all can see

Thanks Coopman, until Bill changes this short-sighted policy that nobody except a troll wanted, then that site will become one of my first looks for product information.

If you play any boardgames, here's a few related to that:
consimworld.com
boardgamegeek.com

The fact that the link to this thread has been deleted from The Arnem thread looks like Bill is just trying to hide the effects of what seems to be a revolt. Bill That really does not endered us to you. We in the end, the punters, are your bread and butter. Ignore us and we leave then it will not be reduced revenue, it will be no revenue, the less of us on the board the less advertising will pay. Perehaps TMP really has come to the end of the road.

If this daft rules stays then I think I and a lot of other folk will be forced to leave. A shame but to be fair its Bill's decision, we can only vote with our feet.

Sadly true….

Amicalement
Armand

Have you been stopped from posting, Tango?
I've not seen anything from you in days!

I got personal guideline from Bill: "You should now share your sculpting experiments in our Hobby News."

Well.. I will do that. I prepare my usual comment and post this on Hobby News. And then we may comment this post on Forums, as von Winterfeldt suggest. Then all will be legal.

I am afraid that the rules are not clear to me at all and I need some guidance.

Let us take as an example the game I played today. I have just finished a 1940 game of Chain of Command, Germans against French. Can I do any or all of the following:

1. Post pictures of the game and a report.

2. If I as the game designer cannot do that, can my opponent post pictures of the game and a report.

3. Had I not been involved in the game at all, but had it been played at a club in another part of the world, could they post pictures and a report?

4. Could I or anyone post a link to the game report hosted elsewhere?

Some advice would help greatly.

Cheers

Richard

Frankly any response would now be welcome…but not just on this board. It is a fact that many do not even know it exists, let alone visit it

I Have seen way too many forums fall over the years because of some policy that was implemented and then any and all criticism was stifled (the irony of which on a historical forum is not lost) because those in charge felt like behaving in a dictatorial manner (which incidentally I think more forums need to be run as more democratic and less monarchy since without people to go to the forum, there's no forum. The most important part of a forum is the people, not the owner) until most people decided to go elsewhere and there was bad blood, even if the policy was later changed.

I'd rather than not happen here.

Hobby News added. Now we wait.. how this works.

And until we wait, here is this post as sample.
-----------------------------------------------

Now all is correct with troopers collar and with folds and buttons on officer coat, von Winterfeldt?

-----
Note for users: Usually I talk about my sculpting processes and ask advice on Forums, but now I have personal guideline from Bill to do this here, on Hobby News section. TMP new policy.
I am not allowed to post this on Forums but here, so later other users may comment or answer on Forums.

The situation is getting farcical, people need the new rules set out clearly where everyone can see them.
Can we please have this placed on the front page where everyone can be made aware of the new rules and how it effects them.
This isn't just a minor change to hobby news, it effects the entire content of the website and what people are allowed to post!

I've been chatting with Bill about how the new rules apply to advertising shows and conventions. Small, non-trade events can go in Hobby News (not the general forum), organisers of bigger events need to become advertisers if not already. Bill, if I got any of that wrong please correct

Bill, please share that sort of thing with all of us.

So many are unaware of the New Policy and will infringe it inadvertently. This "TMP Talk" is not visited by all (possibly not even the majority) and I suspect folk who follow other than WWII, Napoloeonic, in topics such as SYW, Ancients, SciFi will be largely out of the loop right now.

It is very slow to communicate with people through Hobby News.
One message appears there but this is not my one.
5 hours and no changes.

I got message that my post will be scheduled at 12:02 a.m. a'clock.

I have thus far had no reply from Bill, so let me ask this.

There is a Sharp Practice board on TMP. How do I post on there without transgressing the unwritten rule?

Equally, how is the Sharp Practice board different to the GW boards that exist here? GW don't advertise here and, as far as I can see, never have. I DID advertise here for more than ten years, but I elected to no longer do that as I was deeply concerned about some of the negative threads that were becoming more and more the norm.

So, I have no idea where I can post and thus far there is simply no guidance
.
Richard

Guess you can answer questions on the Sharp Practice board, just as long as you don't advertise new products on the board.
Not sure where you stand if someone were to ask "What are you working on next and when is it coming out?"
I suppose posting is now a game of Russian roulette. Your post may or may not be deleted for rather obscure reasons.
I notice someone's post about a kickstarter has been deleted for a second time. They mentioned that they didn't know why it was deleted so I'm guessing posts are just being deleted with no explanation, leaving people with no idea what's going on.
There really needs to be an explanation on the front page!

OH YES.

This is getting daft.

No one said this was a democratic board and that we the contributors or even the supporting members, owned it. I totally accept that.

This is now however getting really infuriating. (In the UK we are going through just this at the moment, constitutionally…a long story)

The Editor is quick enough to respond at the slightest bending of the rules to then Dawghouse (like, in my case, using the term "Arriviste", in its original French meaning, or suggesting that the Firearms Board should carry a declaration of non interest from any NRA financial support, without remotely suggesting such!)

Why this awful failure of communication for a site we all really value?

COMMUNICATION!!!!!!!!!

Please. I know the idea is to just ignore this rebellion and it will all go away and then quietly reverse the "New Policy"

and no one will notice. (which is likely on this obscure forum)

But what about gaining huge respect and saying we did get this slightly wrong? There was a good case for what we wanted and it would have been a counsel of perfection…but we now accept it does not meet the needs of our readers……

No politician ever does this..ever…but if they once did

So what you are saying Devil Dice is that on the Sharp Practice board I cannot mention new Sharp Practice products? I really appreciate your input as at present I am completely in the dark as to what I can or cannot do.

Can I mention Sharp Practice products that were produced before the changes were made and during the period within which I was an advertiser?

Can other people mention Sharp Practice on the Sharp Practice board, or is that advertising?

Can people post on the Sharp Practice board promoting and advertising other similar rule sets that compete with Sharp Practice if those posters are paying to advertise here?

Do the new rules make redundant any rule specific boards if the publisher of those rules no longer advertise with TMP?

Do posts made before the advertiser withdrew his or her advertising still remain as legitimate posts on those boards, or are they now to be expunged?

WiIll the same rules apply to all companies? So, will TooFatLardies be affected in the same way as Games Workshop?

I am entirely unclear what I can and cannot do. I fear that I am not alone with other companies. Indeed, looking at the official list of wargames businesses it seems that only 10% (roughly) advertise here. What do the other 90% do?

I honestly feel that the 90% majority need some clarification. That said, I honestly believe that this is a self-destructive policy that needs reconsidering. But hey, it's Bill's rules and Bill's place. But it seems that the one-time poster "Thad Blanchette" who prompted this entire change of policy is not just a sock puppet, but a sock puppet taken VERY seriously by Bill. Why? Why take notice of someone who is promoting the most self-destructive course of action that could be taken?

Bill, please reconsider what you are doing here. This should be an open forum for promoting the hobby. You can still make it so.

Richard

This happens at last.
After 7 hours my post is published. But without explanating I added.
theminiaturespage.com/news/?id=364200639

Posts are being deleted with not the slightest feedback to why this might be so….or even that this has happened!

Orwell had it right in 1984.

New postings just go, because they are not Newspeak. Sorry "New Policy"

All we ask is some response from our hosts..

and this on a forum where the majority of visitors/contributors/supporting members can see it!

I can actually see the point being made….even if I disagree with the end result

The Editor of TMP
Had a change of policy
Which made all the new products hard to find
Subscribers made a fuss
Since they had less to discuss
Would the Editor kindly change his mind?

"For discussion of community issues involving the website, including requests for new Message Boards, and just saying "hi" to Bill Armintrout (the Editor)."

I fear the total lack of response to the questions raised in this thread, despite the Editor posting on other parts of the site within the same time frame, means he doesn't wish to discuss any of this and would rather it all just went away.
Sadly I think it will all just go away in time as people become disheartened and move on :-(

I think that this is already half way down the slippery slope to oblivion. I stopped being a supporting member due to overzealous moderating. I was considering becoming an advertising member, don't see any point now. I'm thoroughly expecting this post to be deleted and probably my membership to be cancelled, so what, I'll just visit the site and not be able to comment, hardly a loss.

Lambert is a poet

But he does not know it.

Seriously, I asked him to cross post a response from elsewhere on this subject. Which I thought a masterful bit of prose. (He must have Irish blood…..I assume "he" of course…I have learnt from academia).

Devil Dice. Great nomme de plume and 110% agree. Thanks

Foxweasal. Our messages went in together, but just enough time to respond.

Arise ye huddled masses. You have nothing to lose but your chains. Hasta la Victoria Siempre. No Pasaran. EEt is better to live on your feet than to die on your knees… (that last bit I always get wrong after a few Negronis or Manhattans…one is better than the other…..one of them you survive to appear in a TV documentary years later)

Oh, what the heck. This just does not sound right. This is your forum. Make whatever rules you want, but be honest and tell us now. (You seriously have no idea what we are going through last few days in the UK, speaking as one who does not even have a British passport after 65 + years living in this country)

OK, Lambert shares my views on Social Media and refuses to get involved in things like heavily made up worryingly girls, with collagen lips, stressed out by what people say about them as they check their Facebook thing every thirty seconds, while raking it in.

No. I will instead cross post what he said elsewhere, which I have not seen expressed better and I have tried;

"I agree that the Editor is in charge and he can do what he likes. It's his rules. But we don't have to like them.
Personally, one of the main reasons I visit these boards pretty much every day is to find out what new products are on the market, and Tango, Deadhead and others have provided the very valuable service of posting pictures to save me the bother of looking at all the different firms' websites. On these boards we then discuss whether the uniforms are right or wrong, whether the muskets are too short, the heads too big, the horses too small, etc, etc.
Yes, I see the argument that if you just say "here's some new figs aren't they great", then that's not much different to an advert. However, I don't think manufacturers generally get an easy ride; readers here are every bit as likely to throw rotten tomatoes at a product as give it a gold star.
For me – and this is a purely personal view – if new products aren't posted on the Product Review board then I won't know they exist. I have less reason to visit the site, less reason to contribute and less reason to pay subs. The manufacturer may not be paying to have the product pictured on the site, but I am paying to see it."

I cannot beat that.

Exactly

Well tonight is 9/11 our 11/9 depending on your side of the Ocean, but even over here it is now 9/11 these days.

The last time anyone from the Editorial Board posted on this or the parallel forum (Policy Change) which is solely on TMP Talk I would remind you, was 7/11 (or 11/7 over here…..we are awkward).

I will now risk being dawgheaded and say that is…inconsiderate. I was going to say arrogant or insolent, but would not dare do so, as I value my input into the forum they created.

I would caution you to be careful what you say as the way things are right now, people's posts are being deleted with no explanation and it probably wouldn't take much to get your account locked for making too much fuss.
It's very obvious the Editor wants to push on with the new rules in the hope people become paid advertisers just to be able to show their products very briefly in hobby news now they are no longer able to post them anywhere else on the site.
He's demonstrated he has no intention of discussing it, so the only option we have is to accept the situation or seek out other sites that do allow manufacturers and rules writers to discuss their products openly on forums.

True enough.

All this new policy works like when I want to say "good morning" to my family after wake up, then I enter such request to cencors. If cencors works hard and approve my request then on evening my family get my "good morning" wishes. And drinking my morning coffee, I may get yesterdays "good night" wishes from my family.

But next we will try, how this work when I add 5-6 such separate promotion posts to Hobby News simultaneously every day, as I work with different projects simultaneously.