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"We must not simply announce new products" Topic


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07 Sep 2019 7:27 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from Napoleonic Discussion boardRemoved from Napoleonic Product Reviews boardCrossposted to TMP Talk board

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Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 8:59 a.m. PST

I suspect many of us are not aware of a change in policy within TMP.

I had noticed a couple of postings disappear without any trace or explanation, but now realise what has happened.


Basically if we say Joe Bloggs has just released new Waterford Light Infantry, with a photo, that will get deleted (even if JB is a paid up advertiser on TMP). Such belongs now on the Hobbies News it seems.


If you can show them painted up by you, or provide some added content eg a true review, warts and all, that is different. I can see the point, such new topics are far more use than a simple announcement, but overall I think it will be a loss to us.


This has led to much discussion, but I again wonder if many of you are quite unaware of this;

TMP link

The Beast Rampant07 Sep 2019 9:39 a.m. PST

So then, Bill has pretty much stifled Tango? grin

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 10:23 a.m. PST

Oh, no Beast. My understanding is that Tango can continue to provide links to articles written by people with no grasp of history on the causes and consequences of wars as often as he wants to. (And who of us didn't appreciate "We Coulda Been Canada!"?)

He just can't provide us with anything which might be useful in miniature warfare.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 10:31 a.m. PST

Hmm.. I understand, that I may continue to share my sculpting efforts and ask help about uniform details as earlier anyway?
Despite the fact that in future these sculpts will be transformed to products.

Lambert Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 10:42 a.m. PST

Well I wasn't aware of that, and I agree it's a loss. When the Waterford Light Infantry do get released, along with the Waterford mounted horse artillery of course, how will I know?
If Tango posts a picture and says "Nice!", does that count as a review? I think it should.

Whirlwind07 Sep 2019 10:45 a.m. PST

@deadhead,

so what is the actual policy? does it only apply to figures? or scenery, books, rules whatever also.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 11:25 a.m. PST

As I understand – whatsoever.
But if you add long story.. then you may..

Personal logo Stosstruppen Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 12:15 p.m. PST

Basically you can't start a topic that is showcasing a companies products or Kickstarters. Any company, even advertisers.

You can ask for recommendations and people can answer you without a problem.

You can showcase your painting (not a company) and say I painted such and such figures, buildings etc.

You can do balanced reviews of products (not fanboy reviews)

You can do AARs and mention what rules minis etc you used.

That is my understanding.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 12:20 p.m. PST

So I may to show and share my sculpting processes or not?

The Beast Rampant07 Sep 2019 12:31 p.m. PST

If Tango posts a picture and says "Nice!", does that count as a review? I think it should.

I assume you're joking?

If someone reports a Kickstarter that includes some minis they are excited about, that's a good thing OMO. There's a substantial difference between a proud papa passing out blue-banded cigars, and showing up at the fire station at 3AM to dump off your baby.

Or twenty babies at once.

Basically you can't start a topic that is showcasing a companies products or Kickstarters. Any company, even advertisers.

It increasingly appears someone is deliberately chopping away at reasons why I come here.

Personal logo Stosstruppen Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 1:04 p.m. PST

TBR agree 100%

Sho Boki – That's a good question, best ask Bill.

Tango is virtually unemployed…..

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 2:18 p.m. PST

"Tango is virtually unemployed….."


Not yet… as life… I would give a good fight before left this place….

Armand

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 2:27 p.m. PST

I did wonder if I was the only one to whom this came as a surprise. Clearly I am not.

In the original announcement (link given above), the Editor does try to address many concerns expressed. But even those paying for advertising rights seem to have their doubts about this. I share them.

I did wonder about crossposting beyond Napoleonics, as I do regularly look into WWII and ACW, but did not in the end. I fear that Dawghouse…no integrity me.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 2:36 p.m. PST

1. All info about wargaming products must be only in Hobby News section.
2. Only advertisers may post there, trough censor.
3. Most people avoid this section but cannot turn it out.

What we will do in Forums?

Personal logo aegiscg47 Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 2:53 p.m. PST

Deleted by Moderator

But a lot of that really isn't TMP's fault. The hobby is diverging at a faster and faster rate each day. The amount of new releases, scales, terrain, board games, etc., is staggering, with many companies or games/series having a Facebook presence and/or forum. I thought I kept pretty up to date on board war games since I frequent BGG, CSW, here, and a few other sites. I found two or three Facebook groups that showcase all kinds of incredible Kickstarter projects, games out of Spain, Poland, etc., and more. You could just spend all day on many of the sites that focus on the Command and Colors series of games!

Not quite sure where all of this is going, but I think going to just one place for all of your hobby news any more means you'll miss 80% of the stuff that is coming out.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 3:19 p.m. PST

"I think going to just one place for all of your hobby news"

This is the key. One big place for all hobby news is better than multiple small places. This big place may also guide you to these small places. But only when big place allow this. If not, the big place himself becomes small.
I was member one of such big forums in Asia, connecting all wargamers from several countries. But now there are only couple of post in month and nobody knows smaller places, where people spread out..

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 3:43 p.m. PST

Guys, I'd be VERY careful about using FB for--well, anything, really. Remember all the money in it from FB's point of view comes from selling your personal information, and from what you visit, who "friends" you or tries to and a host of other things, they'll learn more about you than you have any intention of telling them.

Not easy to have any privacy today, but a good first step is not helping out the people who make their living by ensuring you have none.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian07 Sep 2019 6:05 p.m. PST

So I may to show and share my sculpting processes or not?

If you are doing it to promote the commercial interests of a non-advertising company, then please don't do it.

Or ask the non-advertiser to become a TMP advertiser. It is very inexpensive.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 7:00 p.m. PST

WOW!!!

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian07 Sep 2019 7:38 p.m. PST

I had noticed a couple of postings disappear without any trace or explanation, but now realise what has happened.

There was a non-advertiser who posted about their upcoming convention appearance, which was removed according to the new policy, and they were sent an explanation.

There was another non-advertiser who posted about a free download… which was promoting a sale on their website, so we explained that was not appropriate. (That's not due to the new rules, that was prohibited under the old rules!)

Tango was apparently confused about the new policy, and made several cryptic posts which featured pictures without explanation of where he got them from (which is just unfair to the photo source), or where he tried to post about new products by asking a question about them (but come on, they were new product announcements for non-advertisers).

But generally, the new policy seems to be working well, and there has not been much impact on forum discussions.

Those who are upset that such-and-such company's new releases can't be mentioned on the forum should perhaps channel their energy into encouraging those companies to become advertisers and support the good work we're doing here at TMP.

If those of us here at TMP have made a decision to focus on energies and resources on those good companies in the hobby which are our advertising partners, rather than those companies that are 'saving their pennies' or aren't interested in the TMP community, then we have the right to do so.

I don't know what each of you do for a living, but I imagine that you would get tired of "giving it away for free" eventually.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Sep 2019 10:42 p.m. PST

Thanks Bill for clearing this out that talking about miniatures and showing them in Forums is forbidden because someone produced or may produce them.

But I don't understand why anybody must become advertiser, because even then the showing and talking about his miniatures in Forums still is forbidden? Or this policy changed overnight?

Jcfrog Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 12:27 a.m. PST

So it is on. Please follow Russ D in allowing advertisers to talk about their stuff. Advertising is one thing, reading a bit or seeing is another.
And next year or sooner I will be an advertiser… So I am concerned.

And about Fb ( best called fessbook for French;) yes. Concerned, but I finally got there as so many guys are. Pity.

it will be hard to figure out when or not to talk about this or that miniature range. As Boki said. In the coming age of 3d printers and many creators of small lines, advers even relatively cheap, will be another trouble unfiting the newly opened world. That is if states don't stiffle such an attempt at economic creative freedom.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 12:53 a.m. PST

I do hope my original posting does not detract from the much lengthier discussion under the "Policy Change" banner. It must seem very strange that I have started a whole new, duplicated, topic on this message board.

I posted this yesterday solely on two Napoleonic message boards, suspecting that most readers were not aware of the change. Certainly I was not. It has now been deleted and moved to here, where, of course, all the original debate took place.

I can genuinely see the argument that free advertising is unfair to those who do cough up. I have long asked that any contributors provide added value in their messages. If you like something, highlight what aspects. If the button count is wrong, say so, even if some then take umbrage. If there is a new release, provide some review, such as is done by that marvellous plastics 1/72 site.

My worry remains that this change in policy has not been widely communicated. Should the editor not post this news onto every single forum to make it perfectly clear? Does everyone read this TMP Talk?

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 1:01 a.m. PST

I don't read. I heared about this from you. And now nobody will know again, as your topic was moved away.. here.

Also this is not accurate to say, that new policy works well, when nobody don't know about this new policy. ;-)

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 2:52 a.m. PST

If Hobby News is now to become our "Go to" to find new products, I did wonder how often it is visited currently. I thought it worth checking the statistics;

TMP link

and am baffled by what I found. Every topic is entitled; "The Face of Modern Battle Released" followed by a number 1-50. Click on them and you come up with a variety of adverts I do admit.

How will media boards survive if there is to be no announcement of new books? I know the obvious answer is, again, that we should be providing some added content, with our review of the book, its accuracy, its novelty, its comparison with similar publications. But realistically?

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 3:21 a.m. PST

I come here to show my works and see others works.
Not to see advertises and banners. Now the showing of works is banned. Absolutely. Without exceptions.

For example I cannot see the brilliant works from Forwardstudio anymore, because he was stupid enough and releases some 3D prints and is now producer, whos commercial interests will be promoted, if people see or talk about his works.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 5:14 a.m. PST

I see or read out one exception. May be.
Bill says: "Or ask the non-advertiser to become a TMP advertiser."

Does this mean, that non-advertisers may comment advertisers products?
Advertisers are not allowed to comment their products by himself anyway, as I understand.

So.. if I register as advertiser, then I allowed to let some other people upload my sculpting pictures instead myself?

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 5:28 a.m. PST

No. It is very definite.

New releases, that one wishes to promote, can only be shown on the Hobby News Forum and that of course only by those who have paid to advertise. That payment does not allow them to post their product on, let us say, Napoleonic Discussion or New Products.

The only way around it is to paint them and show one's artistry, or get someone else to do a genuine review (genuine meaning faults and praise). That might work for figures and models, but books?

coopman08 Sep 2019 5:29 a.m. PST

So I guess that we need to know what is the definition of "new" and at what point does the age of the "new" product make it old enough that we can discuss it without breaking the rules?

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 5:39 a.m. PST

Yes, advertiser can't post his work on Forums.
But non-advertiser may comment there about about advertiser's works.
As Bill says, if I want to show my sculpting process in Forums, I must ask producer to register as advertiser. Ergo, non-advertiser may post advertisers works. Only advertiser himself cannot do this.

Pauls Bods08 Sep 2019 5:55 a.m. PST

So…If Im not a creator of a product, or a seller of a product I can paint and Show the product here as Long as I dont get Paid to do so ?
So this:
TMP link
and this
TMP link
are ok?
But this, mentioning the Name of the manufacturer, is not Ok?
TMP link

PS.I wasnt Aware of the Policy Change until I read a post that linked to here. Thanks Liam

whill408 Sep 2019 7:18 a.m. PST

If you want me to channel my energies to encourage non-advertisers to become advertisers on TMP what will my commission be?

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 8:25 a.m. PST

I can only quote one Oliver Cromwell. (I can now hear my dear Mom, from Tipp, rolling in her grave, to whom he was the Divil (sic) incarnate)

but he did say;

"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

It is a marvellous quote from a Puritan, which sounds blasphemous for his faith, but I have used so many times. My Mom never forgave him for Wexford, even 400 years later

Ragbones Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 9:36 a.m. PST

I can now hear my dear Mom, from Tipp, rolling in her grave, to whom he was the Divil (sic) incarnate)

Your mother was right.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 9:47 a.m. PST

"Arra sure he was a hard man, ta be sure"

(As she crossed herself)

I had no problem with my Airfix King Charles I figure, but one day brought home old Tommy Cromwell in 1/12 scale. Oh no. That was beyond the Pale (actually the opposite if you know your Irish history). He ended up in the bin unmade.

Gwydion08 Sep 2019 9:53 a.m. PST

I suggest reading Tom Reilly's 'Cromwell: An Honourable Enemy'.
You won't find him wrapped in the green but it suggests there is as much propaganda as fact in his reputation in Ireland.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 10:05 a.m. PST

and where does the word "propaganda" come from anyway?

Try visiting the home of the Jesuits in Rome. Is it bottom of the Spanish Steps? Nearby anyway?

I have no doubt that Cromwell's troops, once beaten, would have enjoyed the benefits of the Geneva Convention (if things had gone differently, if time travel had been possible and pigs could have flown)

Anything to keep this going!

How many people new about this new "policy change" ?

Big Red Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 10:12 a.m. PST

Reminds me of the old Chevrolet sponsored TV westerns where the characters were not allowed to call a river crossing a Ford.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 11:25 a.m. PST

I even don't know where to register as advertiser.
The only similar thing I found was place where to buy banner. Is it this? Is it all about Bill asks? And then I may show my sculping processes again, but not in Forums but in Hobby News section? I even found this section. As advertiser, I may add there any topics freely? As non-advertiser at moment there wasn't even visual tools for adding topics. It seems very unfriendly environment there for users. Hard to find and visit and comment..
But I may try..

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 12:34 p.m. PST

So advertises like this (my usual posts) are better to have in Hobby News section than in Forums?

-----------------------------------------------


The bayonet is now better?
old left, new right.
-----------------------------------------------

Personal logo ACWBill Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 4:54 p.m. PST

Is this new policy posted somewhere on TMP in it's entirety? I must say I am baffled by what I am allowed to post as an advertiser and where. In reading this thread, I am even more confused.

Markconz08 Sep 2019 4:57 p.m. PST

I only found out about this from you posting in Napoleonic section Liam (deadhead). Seems an unfortunate development – the hobby news section of forum is bizarre as you say, and even if it wasn't I want to know about new Napoleonic stuff specifically not a general forum :(

Zephyr108 Sep 2019 7:52 p.m. PST

"So I guess that we need to know what is the definition of "new" and at what point does the age of the "new" product make it old enough that we can discuss it without breaking the rules?"

I asked a very similar question, and the answer was basically "any product" instead of "new product".

Lets party with Cossacks Supporting Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 8:13 p.m. PST

It seems a shame as it will stifle knowledge and debate. It also seems odd to me that the new policy was not, as Deadhead suggested, placed on every Board, but is confined to here, and removal of postings alerting members to the new policy have also been moved.

I feared that this policy would be difficult to implement and Zephyr1's indication demonstrates this. So no commentary on a product 3 months old, nor apparently 6 months. I get a lot of useful information from current and historical statements about products – especially books. I wonder if the same volume of hobby information will exist with the new policy. Surely not, as only those with a financial interest to do so will post.

I understand the concern against free advertising but was this the only way to deal with it? Why not crack down on self promoting non-advertisers?

It will be interesting to see the actual effect of the new policy. I understand the editor contends there has been no adverse effect – perhaps time may be a better measure.

The Beast Rampant09 Sep 2019 6:21 a.m. PST

I can understand where Bill is coming from

BUT

It is a huge change in policy, and will radically diminish the utility of this site. I think this is nailing the barn door shut after the horse has run off, lived a full life, and died peacefully in his sleep.

docfin09 Sep 2019 9:10 a.m. PST

Time to go I think, there is no point in the website any more. It is now an evan a more complete waste of time than it was a few days ago.

Wayniac09 Sep 2019 9:27 a.m. PST

To me, as someone who only comes here for the reviews and discussions, this seems like a huge mistake. I wouldn't know about anything if not for the reviews. Other than discussing things, the reviews are the major selling point of even coming here, and the fact it even came up as something, or something that someone decided to complain about, seems like a major problem since this is, to my knowledge, first and foremost a discussion forum and now a chunk of discussion (likely the majority discussion) is stifled because a few people whined that they were paying for "advertising" but others were getting their products reviewed for free?

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP09 Sep 2019 10:08 a.m. PST

To be fair (and I am reluctant to act as The Devil's Advocate here) if someone is offering a genuine review that is OK.

"Perrys have just released the Waterford Light infantry of 1815" with a photo is banned

"Perrys have just released the WLI 1815. They are firing line, well animated and beautifully cast. However, oddly, they do include a drummer rather than bugler and have a few other minor errors etc. They are smaller than the Front Rank version but compare well with Brigade etc etc". That I think would be acceptable.

That is the point I was trying to make in my awkwardly entitled posting.

Announce? No. Pay and advertise only on Hobby news.

Review? Fine, post on New Products.

I can see the point, but think it a mistake and an unrealistic counsel of perfection. My beef is still that this has not been properly communicated, beyond my personal comments on Napoleonic, WWII and ACW message topics

Wayniac09 Sep 2019 10:35 a.m. PST

That's how it should be IMHO. Just "Nice models!" is advertising and bad. A picture with an actual review rather than just a link should be fine since that's part of what a message board is.

Sho Boki Sponsoring Member of TMP09 Sep 2019 10:54 a.m. PST

I registered as advertiser. Supporting TMP is a good thing to do anyway.

But I will post my stories about sculpting processes only on Forums as earlier. Despite that advertisers are not allowed to talk in forums. I have no materials to post on annoying Hobby News section.

If this is not OK for Bill new policy then I hope he let me know.
When I can't share my works and look other peoples works, I have nothing to do here.

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