"Policy Change for Hobby News" Topic

Look at the Crowdfunding and 3d printing boards. Those exit mostly to bring new "products" to our attention, usually through a fan's posting. Are we now banned from promoting these?
Some of our advertisers have crowdfunded projects. Is it fair to them to let other companies promote their crowdfunded projects at no cost?

Remember that advertising with TMP is very affordable.

To be honest, it is very fair for me to be able to do it as long as I do not have a relationship with the company. You already have rules about manufacturers creating sock puppets:

What about manufacturers and sock puppets?
People who work in the hobby business are sometimes tempted to sock puppet in order to boost their business or damage their competitors. For example:
Using an anonymous account to discredit a company or its products, without revealing your affiliation with a competitor.
Using an anonymous account to praise your own company's products or service.
Using an anonymous account to attack others who criticize your company's products or service.
Behavior such as this is not tolerated here.

and if you want to prohibit them from posting without paying for advertising that would be your right and a little easier to fathom. But to limit the hoi polloi from merely mentioning some of the goodness of the hobby they have found strikes me as antithetical to the spirit of the community you have built here.

And if this is some backdoor plot by the anti Tango people to silence him, for shame.

Well the Tango issue can be sidestepped by giving him an official unpaid position on the staff so he can continue posting as before

In the past we have waited days sometimes before our hobby news appears??

I completely disagree with this policy change. As others have mentioned, this policy will reduce the amount of information on TMP, and thus lessen its usefulness. Advertisers already get preferential treatment, as news items are far more noticeable than merely posting it in the forum sections.

There also seems to be a bit of a double standard here. So those who pay for advertising are the only ones allowed to mention their products on TMP. And Bill says he polled some advertisers and got 100% agreement with his new policy. (Although it appears from some of the advertisers on this thread's discussion that they are not in favour of it).

But what paying members? Why weren't they consulted? They give TMP money just like advertisers – why shouldn't they have a say in what they like on TMP? I strongly suspect that if they were polled they would be 100% against such a policy.

I can only think that Bill is hoping that this policy will force some companies to become advertisers? Perhaps they might, or drive them away as a matter of principle. Nobody likes being railroaded. Which, admittedly won't matter to TMP in the short run, as they already derive no income from them.

The long run, though…already at least one person has voiced their decision not to become a paying member anymore. Becoming less inclusive will not help drive membership or readership up.

I also see that allowing editors to decide what is and is not advertising, or a review, will lead to trouble. Any sort of judgement call always does.

If members cannot post about various vendors' products or sales, does that also mean that consumer complaints or praise is banned? I would think the new policy would extend to not allowing posts which PRAISE good customer service, because that is an endorsement of a potential advertiser. But that would be unfair to ban praise but continue to allow criticism.

What about questions whether a certain vendor is still in business? That likewise is very close to advertising. Are those posts banned?

But what paying members? Why weren't they consulted?

There was an open discussion here in TMP Talk.

…does that also mean that consumer complaints or praise is banned?

No.

What about questions whether a certain vendor is still in business? That likewise is very close to advertising. Are those posts banned?

No. Read my original post.

Amazing! 57 posts and counting on a controversial topic and no one has been DH'ed yet. Must be adults posting on this topic.

I think I understand what Bill's trying to do and support his efforts. I'm sure if he needs or wants to make adjustments he will.

There was an open discussion here in TMP Talk

With respect Bill, if you're referring to the TMP thread in your original post in this thread, that was a result of a someone trolling TMP. I don't think that was exactly an open discussion, as it was not initiated by yourself, but rather an individual seeking to get a reaction. So I'm sure a lot of people completely missed it.

But in that thread, not one single paying member was in favour of making a change. They voted 100% against your suggestions, although one did mention that whatever you did would be ok with him, which isn't exactly an ringing endorsement.

I quite honestly don't see, if as you say everything is monetarily fine for you, why you feel the need to make such a controversial change, especially in response to a probable troll? And it is obviously controversial, since the vast majority of members in the other thread are against it, and 100% of an unknown number of unknown advertisers are for it.

I am a bit concerned about the approach that if a company doesn't advertise here then they cannot be mentioned. Somehow the conclusion has been reached that such companies shouldn't be in business and even that they are somehow underfunded. Those are rather damning and sweeping conclusions to draw about companies who simply don't choose to place their advertising spend with a particular company, i.e. TMP.

This is, or was, a hobby forum where all aspects of wargaming were discussed. This move would seem to shift that position to the point where it is a forum to discuss only the companies who advertise here and their products alone. That is no longer a hobby forum, but rather a product placement advertising site. I for one am not convinced this is a positive step.

I can't see why the normal non-manufacturing, non-retail store guy cant post about a companies products to obtain opinions, or to say how excellent they are, or to say how awful they are?

Isn't this The Miniatures Page? The point of the whole thing is to talk about Miniatures?

I quite honestly don't see, if as you say everything is monetarily fine for you, why you feel the need to make such a controversial change, especially in response to a probable troll? And it is obviously controversial, since the vast majority of members in the other thread are against it, and 100% of an unknown number of unknown advertisers are for it.

Because it's reasonable and fair?

I am a bit concerned about the approach that if a company doesn't advertise here then they cannot be mentioned.

That's not what I said, is it?

I can't see why the normal non-manufacturing, non-retail store guy cant post about a companies products to obtain opinions, or to say how excellent they are, or to say how awful they are?

Again, did you read the policy?

So I get this straight? Old Glory, as a paying advertiser -- are essentially banned from ever making mention of our own product, future plans, convention information, etc,etc,etc at anytime or anywhere on the message boards ???

Russ Dunaway

I see the purge has begun.

guess my time here is done. See y'all on Facebook.

Because it's reasonable and fair?

I hear what you're saying Bill, but it's not. Arguably it is fair to the paying advertisers (although it seems some of the paying advertisers disagree) but how can it be fair to paying members? Why should their access to news on TMP be limited to only a subset of miniature manufacturers?

Both are your customers, but you're – in my opinion – now being unreasonable to one side.

As I mentioned, I am indeed puzzled as to why this policy change in reaction to a probable troll? It appears that already some members are leaving TMP, which probably is giving the troll great satisfaction.

What concerns me is that there is talk on the web about this troll actually being Bill posting so that he can then react to it in a manner which makes it look like he's being democratic.

I for one find that type of talk to be hugely dangerous. Let's try to apply some common sense here. Why would Bill do such a thing? It seems far more likely to me that this troll, someone who had never posted before but who came forth with such strident opinions, is actually someone inherently evil who is trying to damage TMP by stirring up trouble. Surely no other explanation makes any sense at all.

Or… it's a political maneuver … (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

What concerns me is that there is talk on the web about this troll actually being Bill posting so that he can then react to it in a manner which makes it look like he's being democratic.

I for one find that type of talk to be hugely dangerous. Let's try to apply some common sense here. Why would Bill do such a thing? It seems far more likely to me that this troll, someone who had never posted before but who came forth with such strident opinions, is actually someone inherently evil who is trying to damage TMP by stirring up trouble. Surely no other explanation makes any sense at all.

What I don't understand is why was such an obvious trolling post allowed to stand. Bill is normally very quick to respond to troublemakers and yet someone posting under the name of a previously banned member is neither locked or deleted immediately and the post is made into a new policy!?!

And that's the trouble Devil's Dice. It makes it look like this is something Bill is involved in, or even that he has taken that account name and is using it in a puppet type manner. But that cannot be the case as Bill wouldn't do that. I mean no way. So what evil force is behind this?

This means that Hobby News can no longer be posted on our forums. Companies cannot post new product announcements, sales, convention visits, or other subjects which are normally covered in Hobby News.

Since only TMP advertisers can post stories to the Hobby News section, this means that non-advertisers will need to become advertisers if they wish to promote their products on TMP. (It is very inexpensive.)

I grew up playing WRG rules since I was 16, I'm currently 63. I'm used to tortured sentences written in Barkerese and trying to interpret commas in sentences in acts worth of the Supreme Court The above police is simplicity itself. Congratulations it is clear and streight forward.

Does this effectively stop people asking for recommendations for figures, models, books etc.? If someone asks (for example) for a particular class of ship and I know a certain manufacturer has them, or a particular dealer sells them then does that constitute free advertising for them?,

No.

Likewise, does posting pictures of my latest modelling efforts of Company Xs nice tank models constitute free advertising if I mention the name of the manufacturer?

And does this mean a ban on book reviews (or reviews of other media?)

No and no, I already answered that question.

Now I'm confused.

I am not an advertiser. I will never advertise my services on TMP because my profession is not relevant to Wargaming.

I will be running a game next week using a set of rules that is produced by a TMP advertiser. It will feature figures, some produced by TMP advertisers (thank you Russ Dunaway), some not. It will feature terrain, some produced by TMP advertisers, most not.

I the battle report I will refer to both rules and figures, because those are common questions. Now a strict reading of the rules says that this isn't allowed: "this means that non-advertisers will need to become advertisers if they wish to promote their products on TMP."

BUT Bill says it's acceptable for me to post on the Napoleonic Battle Reports page.

Now the pictures of the battle will be produced by my friend Jeff, who is a TMP advertiser. If the battle battle report is produced by him, he will not be able to post it as a "Napoleonic Battle Reports" page, because it is, in essence an advertisement for his game. Even if it's part of a series of battle reports/scenario ideas going back over 10 years on TMP. So this "Battle Report" now will have to appear in "Hobby News" where hobby news goes to die. I've subscribed to TMP for mmost of my 12 years of membership and I've never read "Hobby News" – I only normally read 8 boards and "TMP Talk" only occasionally.

So either

(A) the policy doesn't mean what it quite clearly states that it does.
(B) the whole thing was rushed through without proper thought or clarification.

I have had TMP talk turned off for some years now. I was tired of seeing the drama in my feed constantly. I do check from time to time to see what is going on and have not felt I have missed much till the last couple of days. While I am whole heartedly against companies improperly using the forums and Marketplace to advertise essentially for free, I vehemently disagree with the practice of restricting members, especially those of us who pay for supporting membership, from posting about stuff we see. I don't know how many times I have discovered new things from folks posting in the forums, and I'm not even talking about Tango. Additionally, the restriction would seem to include asking for references on rules, figures and other gaming items, which by the way, I have done a number of times. I'm going to give it some thought, but if this is what you are going to do, my supporting membership will not be renewed. Sad….

" Ancients Discussion – For discussion of anything related to Ancients wargaming."

Does that not include new stuff coming out ?

Worldwide there are about 3200 Miniature Companies of different sizes … how many Companies publish in TMP? … ten … twelve? … twenty? …

That clearly means that about the rest … massively the rest …. there is no way to know / find out / see / comment ANY of their news … and that without including the Companies that produce relationed products…. parallel to the Hobbie as of transport or storage (which I don't see published in TMP) …

Therefore … we must understand once and for all … that this new policy … of a fierce pen … has just prohibited any knowledge of 99% of the news of the Hobbie.

On a page that boasts of being exclusive to wargamers ….!

This should not exist as a background in the world …what a curious and remarkable thing …

What is the real motivation to give us such a slap in the face to those who have belonged for so long and faithfully visited this Forum?….

Amicalement
Armand

+1 Tango!

So it seems, paying advertisers are being limited as are the non paying?

So it seems, paying advertisers are being limited as are the non paying?

We're saying that Hobby News belongs in Hobby News, not on the forums.

Worldwide there are about 3200 Miniature Companies of different sizes … how many Companies publish in TMP? … ten … twelve? … twenty? …

We have hundreds of advertisers, Tango. And it is not fair to our paying sponsors to let other companies post commercial announcements at no cost, or for individuals to give away 'free advertising' on behalf of non-paying companies.

Additionally, the restriction would seem to include asking for references on rules, figures and other gaming items, which by the way, I have done a number of times.

Read the policy again. You are mistaken.

Now the pictures of the battle will be produced by my friend Jeff, who is a TMP advertiser. If the battle battle report is produced by him, he will not be able to post it as a "Napoleonic Battle Reports" page, because it is, in essence an advertisement for his game. Even if it's part of a series of battle reports/scenario ideas going back over 10 years on TMP. So this "Battle Report" now will have to appear in "Hobby News"…

If you are posting about a battle you have played, go ahead and post about it. That is not the same as making a commercial announcement about a new product release.

What I don't understand is why was such an obvious trolling post allowed to stand.

It's not really trolling, is it? Could be a disgruntled advertiser who just wishes anonymity. I felt it was fair criticism, so I let it stand.

Whether it is really from Thaddeus Blanchette, or if he copied from someone else (as he often does), or if it is someone pretending to be Thaddeus, hard to tell on the internet these days.

And that's the trouble Devil's Dice. It makes it look like this is something Bill is involved in, or even that he has taken that account name and is using it in a puppet type manner…

Yes, it was me.

I am also Tango. And the OFM.

I also pretended to be TooFatLardies the other day.

Also, none of the staff editors exist. I pretend to be them too.

I almost forgot… did you hear the rumor about how I designed Donkey Kong and I'm fabulously wealthy? Yes, that's true too.

You can always believe what you hear on the internet.

Toe the party line or have your post deleted it would seem.

It all ends with most of us want a free for all, yet moderated, forum, about wargaming ( heavens sake even non historical thanks to filters!)😋.
Yet we ignore the realities of financing it. Too many socialists maybe, who think money Komes, like air. Here some have to do the job, pay for it, and as it is a full, or I suspect more than full time job, expect to live from it.

I have this wonderful cartoon captured somewhere, unfotunately can't reproduce here which shows two pigs talking.
"Isn't it great we have nothing to pay for the barn?"
- yeah even the food is free!
Result: if you are not paying for it, you are not the customer, you are the product being sold.
We can't have both as M Friedman said wisely.

Mr Bill is right, if some companies pay for advertising then all should. But it goes against general information and will make it very awkward to get a balance.

I smell a "farter" …

We can't have both as M Friedman said wisely.

Milton Friedman was also for a guaranteed minimum income for all American families funded through tax dollars. So, the analogy would be that all companies, vendors, etc. should be able to post info regarding products here, irrespective as to whether they are paid advertisers. Those who are paid advertisers should get some sort of enhanced position on these pages.

Confotttiere😋
Yes, why not, but the main question for mr Bill is his income, which allows for everything else. I too like it free, but does it work?

Possibly allow paid up advertisers highlighted coloured text as their "bonus" so that they stand out in threads

I totally understand why this would apply to NON PAYING companies -- but fail to see why PAYING ADVERTISERS would be blocked from showing their product on message boards?
There have been plenty of times we have put some TIME SENSITIVE adds into the Hobby News -- marked "TIME SENSITIVE " -- only to be ignored and we were able to at least get the message out into the forums?????
I have some things we are working on this very minute, not sure, if,when,where -- but would love to have feedback,input,etc but am sure it would be considered "news" ???
Very disappointing.

Russ Dunaway

+1 Old Glory

There have been plenty of times we have put some TIME SENSITIVE adds into the Hobby News -- marked "TIME SENSITIVE " -- only to be ignored and we were able to at least get the message out into the forums?????

"Plenty of times"? Strange, but I don't remember this ever happening. We almost always get your stories in within 24 hours.

I have some things we are working on this very minute, not sure, if,when,where -- but would live to have feedback,input,etc but am sure it would be considered "news" ???

Probably yes.

Toe the party line or have your post deleted it would seem.

Post like a gentleman, and your post won't get deleted.

Telling people to abandon TMP and run to some other website will get your post yanked. Of course.

We have very different memories then Bill. As you know Teresa handles our adds and I do not know if she could site examples? By the way, I like your page and consider it great value. Why not just take up the add costs?

Post like a gentleman, and your post won't get deleted.

Telling people to abandon TMP and run to some other website will get your post yanked. Of course.

I. Did. No. Such. Thing.

I posted quite civilly, as I always do. I was actually AGAINST people leaving for other sites. I merely mentioned that, judging from some of the comments in this thread, that your new policy seems to be hurting TMP. I fail to see how that can possibly be construed as telling anyone to leave. I didn't say I was doing so, nor did I suggest that others do that.

I even reiterated that in a private message to you Bill.

So if a member is in the woods alone with his tablet and posts, "I just received some of ABC's figures from their DEF range and they are just outstanding", is he going to get dawghoused for it?

So would this apply if I notice a Kickstarter of interest that I have no connection to and merely want to make people aware of it?

So would this apply if I notice a Kickstarter of interest that I have no connection to and merely want to make people aware of it?

Correct. No free advertising for Kickstarters, it's not fair to the other Kickstarters that pay to advertise here.

So if a member is in the woods alone with his tablet and posts, "I just received some of ABC's figures from their DEF range and they are just outstanding", is he going to get dawghoused for it?

Is that a product announcement? It would be fine, unless he makes a strange habit of posting that whenever Company Such-and-Such releases something!

I. Did. No. Such. Thing.

I didn't say you did. That was somebody else.

We have very different memories then Bill. As you know Teresa handles our adds and I do not know if she could site examples?

I would think she would praise us for the many times we ran her submissions on time, no matter how short the notice. And if we're talking about 'on time', how about those payments? *cough* *cough*

By the way, I like your page and consider it great value. Why not just take up the add costs?

Because this isn't about finances, it's about fairness.

I really don't think a public forum is the place to bring up your advertisers paying habits.
I'm sure Old Glory was only trying to give you good advice.
Perhaps it's time to nuke this thread before things get said that can't be undone :-(

I did think it was odd that a Tango posting in a Napoleonic forum a few days ago disappeared without trace. He posted a picture of a relatively new release from a US company. He commented that he had seen the subjects better done, but invited further opinions. I added my experience of the range both pros and cons. It vanished.

Was this advertising? Well certainly not by the company concerned. Was this opened as a chance for a review by readers? I think so. Tricky issue this, but equally can understand the commercial drive.

TMP, or no one else has ever not been paid by Old Glory, ever. Do what you want. I'll say no more.

I think this new policy is primarily in search of profits and will impact negatively on TMP.

It seems to me a high percentage of posts of the sort "Hey, did you see the new 28mm [insert figure range/period/type] that so-and-so just brought out?"

It is stifling enthusiasm for the hobby in search of base profit.