"Italy's Elite Infantry: The Bersaglieri" Topic

"…Bersaglieri fought the French and the Greeks in 1940, but the first Bersaglieri to see combat in North Africa, the 10th Bersaglieri Regiment, crossed to Libya in early 1941 and headed for the front. It met disaster before arriving there, when British tanks ambushed its truck convoys well inside what the regimental staff had been told was the secure rear area.

In all, six of the 12 regiments fought in North Africa, compiling an excellent combat record. More than once, Bersaglieri units fought to the last man to hold a position while German units ran away.

In the two Panzer Grenadier games set in the North African theater, Afrika Korps and Desert Rats, the Bersaglieri are easily the best Italian units depicted, with firepower and range equivalent to German units and usually superior morale. They also have trucks for mobility, but are hampered somewhat through use of the same inadequate 47mm anti-tank gun as other Italian formations. At least they usually have more of them…!
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Amicalement
Armand

Good to see some good press for the Italians. Much maligned in WW2

[Admittedly bias being over 80% Italian!] And they did have nice hats too !

With good leadership, and despite some second rate equipment, the Italian regular forces did fight very well. But there is that caveat, WITH good leadership :)

The Italians could fight with almost suicidal bravery. Consider the human torpedo attacks on Alexandria (and what they accomplished) or that foray into Grand Harbour Malta by the explosive carrying motor boats.

These are the descendants of those Legions that dominated the known world for centuries. Alpini, Besaglieri, Folgore etc elite units could match anyone, given the chance.

Nicholas Cage and his artillery unit, another example?

Happy you enjoyed it my friends!. (smile)

Agree… Many Italias were really brave….

Amicalement
Armand

What was that quote from Rommel? "The German soldier impressed the world. The Italian Bersaglieri impressed the German Soldier!"

These are the descendants of those Legions that dominated the known world for centuries. Alpini, Besaglieri, Folgore etc elite units could match anyone, given the chance.

The Italian forces generally fought bravely and took some heavy losses at times. Their 8th Army on the Eastern Front was almost decimated. More died there than in NA, IIRC.

Many Italian POWs were not released by the Russians until late '50s – early '60. Of course they were not alone in that. Many Germans and even Spaniards were in that situation at the hands of the USSR.

Most German military POW's and civilians were repatriated 1945-1950. I don't know what if any logic dictated who was repatriated when. By 1953 there were still 20,000 Germans in Soviet hands with the last coming home 1955-56. The large majority of Axis ally personnel-Italians, Hungarians and Romanians-were repatriated by 1947. (As of 1953 there were 2,000 Italian "war criminals" still in the Soviet Union. Some of the Hungarian returnees were immediately put on trial for "anti-Soviet activities". The whole story would make Franz Kafka proud. In any event, the research is clear that all POW's were home by 1956 (including a lone pilot from the Spanish Blue Squadron).

The Italians were simply wrongly equipped – marching infantry, basically – for the type of campaign they were sent into in north Africa. They had rearmed sooner than everyone else and so much of their kit was obsolete.

The stuff about Italian cowardice was simply WW2 Allied propaganda. My mother is 93, was 19 at war's end and she still remembers and believes the whole lot about everyone. Italians cowardly; Nazis comical little twits in preposterous uniforms; German soldiers square-headed and doltish. Non-Nazi, non-military Germans, she regards as jolly, cheerful, and good company. She still loves a Russian because Stalingrad. Whenever one comes to the house to fix the boiler, she can't do enough for them. When we were kids she used to force carrots on us because they're good for your eyesight. This was the laughable official account, that avoided all mention of radar, of how night-fighter pilots found their targets.

It's astonishingly persistent, but of course after 1945 there was no big effort to reverse the propaganda, so if you believed it then, quite often you still do.

Allied propaganda was the most effective of any side. It is still studied by academics for its outstandingly effective methodology.

I understand the large capitulations of Italian forces in the desert were often due to being surrounded and out of water.

@ Skarper

Correct. Transportless marching infantry without water were dead anyway so they would have been stupid not to surrender. There is perhaps an argument that behaving with civility towards your prisoners makes the other side more likely to surrender.

The so-called "Krieg ohne Hass" was not a welcome concept to the German high command who, no doubt recognising the temptation of their western front forces to surrender to a civilised foe, made great efforts to convince their troops that the western allies were no such thing.

The Italians were simply wrongly equipped – marching infantry, basically – for the type of campaign they were sent into in north Africa.

Quite agree. But I would go further. "Wrongly equipped" from several perspectives, not just that they were foot-based.

Their boots were very poor. There are many accounts of Italian soldiers' boots falling to pieces in the Russian campaign. Hard to imagine being a "soldier of foot" when your shoes fall apart.

Their LMGs were terrible. Probably the worst of any WW2 army. Side-feed may be OK, but having to use pre-loaded trays (basically magazines without any protection for the ammo in the magazine), having an oiler as part of the chamber-extraction process, and as a result having such poor rate of fire and feed reliability … for all the criticism of the US BAR (as compared to an MG42), I think the average Italian infantry platoon would have been 100% content to exchange their Bredas for BARs.

Their AT guns were da suck. Not in 1940 perhaps, but by 1942 the Breda (read: Boehler) 47mm gun was mostly a low-caliber, reasonably light and accurate infantry gun. May have been useful against the odd Crusader that showed up, but against even a Valentine (nevermind a T-34 or Sherman) it left the Italians woefully under-gunned.

Their primary field artillery piece was 75mm. Not too bad of a gun -- maybe a bit more complex than it needed to be, but otherwise serviceable. But they were out-gunned by US and British field guns, and by their German allies. Their next piece up was usually the Skoda 100mm Howitzer, which may have had the throw weight to stand next to 105mm US guns, but didn't have the range.

In 1942 the Regia Aeronautica was still flying biplane fighters. Not because they never built monoplanes, but because their first generation of monoplanes were not considered an improvement on their biplanes. Not so much a criticism of the CR.42, but man that G.50 must have been a bit of a dog. I mean, if they had only faced off with Severesky P-35s and Polikarpov I-16s they might have been competitive. But they didn't. And for close air support / ground attack, the best thing I think one could say about the Breda Ba.65 is that it might have grown up to be a Fairey Battle if given enough time…

They had rearmed sooner than everyone else and so much of their kit was obsolete.

This is my understanding as well. They had top of the line stuff for 1936 -- just about the best their money could buy. (except maybe for the LMGs). Unfortunately for them, that left them in a position where they couldn't afford another army in 1940 or 1942.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

It really is amazing how fast and how far the state of the art progressed from about 1930 to 1945.

Not so much a criticism of the CR.42, but man that G.50 must have been a bit of a dog.

It wasn't that bad. By all accounts very manoeuvrable, but lacked power and a decent armament. The Finns did well with it achieving a kill to loss ratio of 33/1! A version with the DB 601 had much improved performance, but by then Fiat already had the DB 605 engined G.55 in development and so it wasn't pursued.

"Wrongly equipped" from several perspectives, not just that they were foot-based.

I agree, and with many leg Infantry units especially in a desert environment that was a real disadvantage. As well as much of their equipment was "antiquated" so to speak. Like some of the IJF's ground units. However, generally the Italians did have some AFVs that were useful eventually. E.g. the M13/40s and the Semovettes, etc. On the other hand the M11/39 and L6/40 were quickly surpassed by many other armies AFVs.

The Italian Air Force was in the process of fielding some excellent fighter designs. The Maachi C202, first deployed in combat in July of 1941, was perhaps the best of the Italian "mass produced" fighters. Allied pilots who faced the 202 were very complementary on the aircraft and said they were fortunate that it suffered from the same problem as many earlier Italian fighters, lack of armament. Originally designed for 2 12.7mm guns in the cowling (50 cal equivalent) 2 7.7mm guns (30 cal equivalent) were added in the wings for a total of 4 guns. Not very impressive.

Fortunately for the allies the Fiat G 55 and Maachi C205, which were both extremely maneuverable as well as making great strides in armament, were introduced in only limited numbers.

It must be said, however, that the Sahariana jacket made the Italians among the best-dressed units anywhere…

Then of course not everyone runs to work! (@1:48 for those who are impatient or don't like music)

YouTube link

As yes Italians always had good taste in fashion !

I like this one very much … in winter gear for Greek and Albanian invation…28mm

Amicalement
Armand

This report by Gen. Navarini on the operations of XXI Corpo Armata in the desert maybe of interest:

link

All the best

Andreas

Out of curiosity, what was the British high command's opinion of the Italians? Or even the opinions of the average rifleman. My uncle was in north Africa but only ever mentioned the Germans.

From what I understand the Italian military was generally not thought of as very good. By most of the Allies. And even sometimes by the Germans.

But they deployed a lot of troops to North Africa, Russian, etc. And in many cases they did fight well given the circumstances, etc., and some of the equipment they had. Many never came home, especially on the Eastern Front.

The German view of the Italians required a certain degree of interpolation. They thought the typical Italian formations were poorly led by a generally incompetent and indifferent officer corps, inadequately trained, terribly equipped and barely supplied. On the other hand, they spoke very well of Italian fighting qualities when led by competent officers and properly equipped and supplied.

Ariete armored division, for example, was in many respects considered a junior partner in the Afrika Korps, especially after having saved DAK's bacon at Gazala.

B