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"Bardin Regulations" Topic


17 Posts

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Personal logo Il Granatiere Supporting Member of TMP31 Jul 2019 10:18 a.m. PST

Is my intention to start again painting some French and Russian units in 15/18mm, in particular AB Figures. They have a repartition, in their catalogue, of French Imperial army 1806-1815 and 1812-1815, so basically Bardin or pre Bardin. I know that the change of uniforms was not made in one night but will be a great mistake to have units in Russia with the old uniforms?

Personal logo Artilleryman Supporting Member of TMP31 Jul 2019 10:27 a.m. PST

Au contraire! I think that the common opinion is that the ‘Bardin' uniforms did not really kick in until mid to late 1813. Pre-1812 uniforms are more likely to be spot on for 1812.

Personal logo 4th Cuirassier Supporting Member of TMP31 Jul 2019 10:30 a.m. PST

No, I think it would be correct.

With only a few exceptions new uniforms were issued only when the old ones were worn out, and stocks of the old style would also presumably be run down first.

The Bardin regulations arrived in February 1812; the Russian invasion began in June. There would have been a switchover to production of the new item during which time stocks of the old would be distributed in the usual way. In four months, there would not have been time to produce, deliver and distribute that many uniforms of the new style.

I reckon the Bardin stuff could not have appeared until late 1812 / early 1813 and would not have been commonplace even then.

Personal logo Mserafin Supporting Member of TMP31 Jul 2019 1:47 p.m. PST

I recall reading somewhere that Davout's Corps got Bardin regulation uniforms before they went to Russia. I'm not sure if this was a theory or backed by actual evidence, or if it was the whole corps or just some units in it. I will try to look for the reference tonight.

Personal logo Il Granatiere Supporting Member of TMP31 Jul 2019 2:23 p.m. PST

Thanks All!

Nine pound round31 Jul 2019 3:18 p.m. PST

Put the bleus and the sou-lieutenants in the Bardin coats.

summerfield31 Jul 2019 3:29 p.m. PST

Bardin was really introduced by the Royalists in 1814. There were still units in pre-Bardin uniforms and Royalist uniforms at Waterloo.
Stephen

Garde de Paris01 Aug 2019 4:28 a.m. PST

Rigo does a plate of the Eagle bearers of the 46eme de ligne. One is a grenadier sergeant, WITH the bearskin. The other is a fusilier sergeant, and both wear the Bardin jacket. The officer, as I recall, wears the plain "surtout."

They are shown for the 1813 era.

GdeP

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP01 Aug 2019 5:47 a.m. PST

Bardin was really introduced by the Royalists in 1814. There were still units in pre-Bardin uniforms and Royalist uniforms at Waterloo.

That is incorrect. The new conscripts of 1813 were undoubtedly uniformed according to the 1812 regulations.

The Armee du Nord was undoubtedly uniformed according to the 1812 Regulations, but there is also undoubtedly troops who wore the older uniforms as that may have been all that was available.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP01 Aug 2019 9:39 a.m. PST

Did Summerfield mean by "really" that the Royalists were particularly enthusiastic about the look. So they went the full hog. They REALLY went for it

Or did his "really" mean to the exclusion of anything earlier? ie anything else is wrong….It was really the Royalists who introduced etc

I suspect the former and they did, for example, convert Gendarmes d'Elite to Bardin jackets after the hundred Days. Most Household troops used that look whether cavalry or foot.

The English language can be strange sometimes

Garde de Paris01 Aug 2019 10:24 a.m. PST

I'm not sure what you mean by "The English language can be strange sometimes."

That statement bears, er, bares, er, whatever – some serious study.

I will weigh the options as I weigh anchor and go way back to my kitchen to eat my curds and --- can't even remember how to spell "whey!"

GdeP

huevans01101 Aug 2019 11:25 a.m. PST

With only a few exceptions new uniforms were issued only when the old ones were worn out, and stocks of the old style would also presumably be run down first.

The Bardin regulations arrived in February 1812; the Russian invasion began in June. There would have been a switchover to production of the new item during which time stocks of the old would be distributed in the usual way. In four months, there would not have been time to produce, deliver and distribute that many uniforms of the new style.

I reckon the Bardin stuff could not have appeared until late 1812 / early 1813 and would not have been commonplace even then.

Probably correct and the accepted common sense view.

It might depend on when a unit's old uniforms were replaced and whether entire units were re clothed at the same time. If a division in Davot's corps was due for new coats in May 1812, it's just possible that several thousand Bardin coats could have been specially supplied and issued to them.

von Winterfeldt01 Aug 2019 12:44 p.m. PST

There is no indication what so ever that the Bardin coats were worn for French infantry in Russia 1812, they appeared mid 1813 – for a good discussion see Napoleon's last Grande Armée – Summerfield may well be right that the Bardin regulations were fully implemented when Boney was gnashing his teeth in Elba

britishbulldog09 Dec 2019 2:19 p.m. PST

The english language – some serious study?
Where. were. wear and ware. What's complicated about that!?

Personal logo SHaT1984 Supporting Member of TMP13 Dec 2019 6:11 p.m. PST

I've no bark in this dog fight, but again I'd draw attention to the fact 'administrations' through eternity loved to document what was already happening, and produce this 'regulation' as 'progress'.
If you havent worked for a civilian government, perhaps not a known experience.
Davout, as commander of the Army in Germany, an arch-administrator and radical, one could say fanatical, proponent of his mens welfare, would have seriously ensured his men, their uniforms, arms and equipment were all the very best available before heading East.

It is interesting to compare the early Empire 'Situations' that reported clothing that was too tight and restrictive- sleeves/ chest sizes/ breeches length etc. with what the 'Bardin' uniform was to also achieve- simplicity, cost savings (material), greater mass production and interchangability etc.
d

von Winterfeldt13 Dec 2019 11:59 p.m. PST

Davout, as commander of the Army in Germany, an arch-administrator and radical, one could say fanatical, proponent of his mens welfare, would have seriously ensured his men, their uniforms, arms and equipment were all the very best available before heading East.

No doubt, be they did not wear Bardin uniforms, also – units threw away their uniforms and just wore overalls, waistcoats and greatcoats, and suffered consequently badly on the retreat, one has to remember, as usual in almost all wars, it was thought it was over in 3 months

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP14 Dec 2019 5:25 a.m. PST

Did Summerfield mean by "really" that the Royalists were particularly enthusiastic about the look. So they went the full hog. They REALLY went for it

I see no evidence for this idea of Summerfield's. The Bourbons did not care for the 'red, white, and blue' aspects of the French army's infantry uniforms in 1814 and abolished it entirely in 1815 and reverted to white coats for the French regiments which the army hated, both officers and enlisted men, as it made them look like Austrians.

Further, after the initial reorganization necessary after Napoleon's first abdication in 1814 the Bourbons neglected the army and their ability to receive and have issued replacement uniforms went slowly if at all. They were not properly supplied and uniformed when Napoleon returned in 1815 and Davout, as the newly-assigned Minister of War was responsible for getting the Army reorganized, resupplied and reequipped and ready for the new war they had to face.

The recommendation stated above for looking at Alfred Umhey's Napoleon's Last Grande Armee is an excellent suggestion and that volume documents that the older uniform was common even in 1813, though the Bardin uniforms were being introduced most probably during the armistice before the fall campaign.

I had forgotten that I had Napoleon's Grande Armee and it is a most interesting and useful uniform reference.

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