"Historicon 2019 turnout, and how much does it matter?" Topic

I'd like to see the turnout report myself. Where'd that thread go?

The preliminary number I saw in here somewhere was 2200. I really couldn't say if it felt more or less crowded as the space was so fractured, and my gut estimates in the past were built around crowding levels in known spaces.

Anything between 1800 to 2200 is good. Where the rubber meets the road will be next year's #s vs. this year's.

Anything between 1800 to 2200 is good.

No, 1800 would not be good. That would mean the flagship con pulled less people than Cold Wars. Considering last Historicon pulled about 2500 I'd consider it disastrous in fact.

3500 – At last!, back to pre Baltimore level
3000 – Spectacular
2750 – Splendiferous
2500 – At an entirely new venue, unheard of
2250 thru 1750 – good
1749 thru 1500 – Concerning
1499 thru 1250 – Alarming
1249 thru 1000 – Catastrophic
999 thru 500 – Cataclysmic
499 thru 250 – Disasterous
A sinkhole opens and swallows the LCC and all in attendence…

…somebody else's problem.

1750 good? That is less than half of where we were 10 years ago. Sorry, there's just no way that is "Good."

1750 is obviously a typo. He probably meant 2750.

No typo. I am in earnest. 2500 at The Host/Wyndham was excellent. To think that we're going to match anything like that in a new venue, in an urban setting, with relatively limited and comparatively $$$ hotel space, and uncertain parking availability, is pie in the sky. And believe me when I write this, that, should I be proven wrong, NO ONE will be better pleased than I.

I have to think a great many people laid back, watching and waiting to read how well/badly things went, planning to use that info to decide about next year. My entire gaming crew blew off this HCon, which is not really so big a deal. They (for the most part) blew off all the FBurg HCons.

What would have been reeeeally interesting, would have been to have 2 HCons at the Host in a row. If we had done so and rang up 2700-3000 on the second go, well then, we're finally back on track.

I have to think that given how smoothly LCC went we're going back next year. Assuming that we do, this year's LCC numbers won't be especially indicative of anything. They'll be a benchmark, in much the same way as FBurg's first years were. The key issue is apples to apples growth. Next year, hopefully, they will go up. If it's flat, we may be on our way back to another FBurg scenario.

Please, not again…

The problem is, at 2200 attendees, paying $7 USD a day for people's parking ($28 for someone attending the whole con) on a $35 USD member prereg price, I'm not sure if this con even broke even. 1750 would have certainly lost HMGS a lot of money.

Not that it would matter too much from a 1 time perspective with HMGS's reserves, but going forward could be problematic. I guess the numbers will eventually come out.

Maybe as a vendor or GM I'd wait and see, but as a gamer, attendee I wouldn't have missed it. Nothing beats first hand experience.

My initial plan was to lay back, maybe day trip.

But the itch got the better of me. I told a friend I was going, but I wasn't sure if it was because I was stupid or just stubborn.

You know, Kpinder's right. This time out bad numbers don't matter. The BOD will tell themselves it's because numbers always drop first year in a new site, and there is no way to refute that. So good numbers won't matter much either. There will be no reconsideration of the site until next year, and then only if the numbers are seriously bad. Because he's also right about the limitations--urban with scarce and expensive rooms--and these mostly don't apply to the staff and BOD.

The real danger is a convention site the board likes which doesn't appeal to the membership, especially since people who don't attend usually stop being members--and so no longer have a say. The Board can tell itself the decline in numbers is inevitable instead of trying to fix the problem.

I'm on the edge. I'm booked for Cold Wars. It needs to be either the LCC or the VFCC in 2020. I have bad memories of the VFCC, and the reports on the LCC confirmed everything I was worried about.

Any time a convention moves, attendance goes down for the first year. Even GenCon moving to Indianapolis from Milwaukee lost attendance.

I have bad memories of the VFCC, and the reports on the LCC confirmed everything I was worried about.

The two aren't really alike anymore. The settings are different and the parking is easier at VFCC.

I don't know about attendance, but as a vendor I can say my sales were down almost 50% from past Historicons. I don't know if that's just a statistical fluke or what, but I sure didn't like it. I DID like the new location. It just needs more customers.

Consensus Inquiry:

Have people decided about going to Fall In!?, and, if so, where do you plan to stay?

So one thing concerning going forward at LCC will the games put on there. Will gamemasters be bringing smaller and/or easier games to put on there given the access concerns? I have been told by several GMs that is exactly what they will do next year there.

Hopefully the staff can get some of the issues worked out, but they likely involve more staff resources.

Yes, I'll be going to Fall In, putting on a game, and staying at the Marriott.

historygamer and KPinder, MTSW YMMV. I will be going to Fall In and likely doing two large games, but I will be staying at a nearby Wyndham because I can use points for free or discounted lodging. I will be going back to Historicon at the LCC and doing likewise, probably bigger games and maybe even three.

No venue will be a perfect match to all the desires and expectations to all people. HMGS has a responsibility to make the convention as accessible and enjoyable to the greatest amount of people for the lowest cost. To this end Historicon was the BEST I have been to ever.

One of the reasons is because I do something a lot of other gamers refuse to consider. When we have a new venue I investigate and change my routine to accommodate the new site. I do not expect in any way the convention to change things to accommodate me. Thus I had no issues parking or loading or unloading at any time although, cheap bastard that I am, I secured lodging 10 minutes away at a Days Inn off Rt 30. Food prices? With the Lancaster Market across the street? Seriously?

Absolutely perfect con for me? No (noise), but I think we need to remember when a gamer says something doesn't work, what he often – not always, but often – really means is it doesn't work for me and thus by default it doesn't work for anyone else because Jesus was hiring and thus I see and know all.

No you don't.

Otherwise the 2200 reported to me I thought was low and came as a surprise. I think it might be a lot of folks burned before and wanting to sit this one out, but we will just have to see. Hope this is correct because the venue is exceptional and I had a great time.

Bill G

We moved from Fredericksburg because everyone was sqwaking about attendance. Well it didnt get any better at the HOST nor even in this awesome venue, however the increase in vendors was awesome so there was less money to go around perhaps. Next year we will see … but it just may be that attendance is not driven by the venue. If so then we had best think deeply about the future of our hobby.

ScottWashburn:

Sorry to hear that but love the 15mm Rorke's Drift I purchased.

Dale

Otherwise the 2200 reported to me I thought was low and came as a surprise.

Or maybe the interest in attending historical game conventions is fading?

What was the official attendance reported by HMGS at the last Historicon conventions held in Fredericksburg and Valley Forge?

As has been said some stayed away as it was the first year , to see how things went before going again, happened with F'burg as well.

I did try getting a room there at venue this year but I believe all the rooms went within a few hours of opening the booking block, even though they were on the expensive side I seem to remember.

I like parking then just walking the rest of the time, host was/is ideal have multiple hotels next door their used to be one directly across the road, so can drink my beer and play games all weekend without having to drive.
Parking wasn't' the issue people thought it would be.

One question for people did they police personal coolers going in and out at all ?

I did try getting a room there at venue this year but I believe all the rooms went within a few hours of opening the booking block, even though they were on the expensive side I seem to remember.

Marriott convention rate $142. USD Less expensive than the Host. Normal price (with Marriott membership signup): $204. USD Still a good deal considering rooms far and above those offered at the Host.

I like parking then just walking the rest of the time, host was/is ideal have multiple hotels next door their used to be one directly across the road, so can drink my beer and play games all weekend without having to drive.

Same can be said at the new location. Hotels fairly close by and within walking distance. Also, parking is much better. No mud pits and slippery grassy areas to park on.

I like the new location. It just has some hurdles and its success will depend on if they can be mitigated.

"Or maybe the interest in attending historical game conventions is fading?"

There are way too many variables at work here to make that claim. Third venue in three years. Parking and access were uncertain going into this one. I believe attendance was up last year to the previous year. So what did that say?

My hope is that they actually apply lessons learned (Joby seems up to that challenge), and it will be even better.

There are way too many variables at work here to make that claim.

It is not a claim. It is a question.

Sorry that is just not true rmarker, it is often tossed out as an excuse.

"Any time a convention moves, attendance goes down for the first year. Even GenCon moving to Indianapolis from Milwaukee lost attendance."

When Gencon went from Milwaukee (23,000) to Indy (25,000) they gained. When they went from Kenosha (3,600) to Milwaukee (5,000) there was an increase.

When Adepticon went from Lombard (2,200) to Schaumburg (2,500), there was also an increase.

FWIW, I stayed at a very nice (evidently recently purchased and refurbished by Wyndham) Days Inn off 30, about 10 minutes away for $ 50.00 a night. Set and saved my GPS at present location, then when I pulled into the parking garage at Duke St next to the LCC, set and saved that location after that. Not a problem whatsoever after.

Regards, Bill G

#kcabai

It may not be borne out in all cases, but it sure does feel real. (Personally, I think if you were to move Origins to a collapsed Quonset Hut out behind the leaky old sewage treatment plant, attendance would skyrocket, based on the funky Woodstocky retro vibe.)

Little Wars 2018 attracted 700 visitors, which happens to be just about the same number that we hemorrhaged on our move from The Lancaster Host via Not-Baltimore to Valley Forge. To this day we are still trying to get well from that one.

We fell on that move, and while I don't have the #s in front of me I remember hearing, after some recovery at Valley Forge, we lost ground again on the move to Fredericksburg.

I did a Q&D search of the internet of Little Wars attendance. Up popped an old rec.games.miniatures thread from 1999 addressing the Little Wars move from Chicago to Rochelle. A Jeffrey Hammerlund, apparently one of HMGSGL's officers at the time, observed that attendance fell from 600 to 480. He observed "You can expect a fall in attendance each time you move a show."

The great curse of the internet is that it doesn't forget anything.

Origins and Little Wars and the East cons are different animals, swimming in different pools. Making comparisons between them is like comparing apples to bowling balls.

Please to pardon our parochial perspective of our particular problems.

No disrespect intended.

On a side note, your guys from 1999 were even more vicious than HMGS(East) is today.

WOOF!

I think we fail to look at the large increase in local shows that happened over the past 10 years. Since this has had an impact on other local or regional shows, I think it has also had an impact on Historicon and the HMGS shows. I can count on one hand the number of my local gaming crew that go in any one year. Let's face it, conventions are not everyone's cup of tea.

Condottiere,
Thank you for your helpful advice on my comments, the nearest place with available rooms was 4 or 5 miles away when I went looking, I think even you would say that isn't within walking distance even without grassy areas comment. And yes I must of remembered wrongly on room prices, thank you again.

I just think some stayed away because it's the first year, to make sure all the kinks get worked out, even the parking issue people were talking about didn't happen.

KPinder

No disrespect taken. I have been on the Little Wars Board for 4+ years now, and Jeff is a close friend. I always kid him about his axiom on moving, because as you said it is not an absolute. LW has had a very Nomadic past and there had always been some disgruntled factions regarding the location (and other things) When we moved to the Westin Lombard (2016)we were at 666, (2017)-675, (2018)-700, and (2019)-705. A couple years we had rain and then snow storms which affected our draw. What I did not mention in my statement, is the graying of our hobby which will continue to attrit us as we go forward. Adepticon and Gencon have been on major upswings and their moves have been because of expansion.

Provided the H-Con. is at the same venue, we are going to attend next year. We held off this time to see how the venue turned out. So many favorable comments, that we have decided to attend. Change the venue and then we are not so sure.

Provided the con is in the same venue, we are going to attend next year. We held off this time to see how the venue turned out. So many favorable comments, that we have decided to attend. Change the venue and then we are not so sure.

We moved from Fredericksburg because everyone was sqwaking about attendance. Well it didnt get any better at the HOST nor even in this awesome venue

This is incorrect. When the con moved back to the Host it gained back 300 people. When it moved to the LCC it has apparently lost 300 again.

#kcabai

I've long been interested in Little Wars, but at 10hrs it's just outside my feasible range. Someday perhaps.

You must know Randy Hardin. He comes east about 1x a year, and is a friend of a friend. He lives out your way.

#TSD101

Maybe that 300 got crossed up and went to the Host.

Hmm, "300", sounds like a good name for a movie…

Nah

Hmm, "300", sounds like a good name for a movie…

Only if has a scene where someone shouts "THIS IS HISTORICON!" while kicking someone down the old decrepit stairs outside leading to the Tennis courts.

the nearest place with available rooms was 4 or 5 miles away when I went looking,

There were quite a few places closer than 4 to 5 miles. Some not "walking distance" per se (everyone's definition varies), but more convenient.

Glad I could be of help.

#TSD101

Check out my thread "Histo-Recon II, The Misadventure.". When I left HCon I got lost. I got my bearings after a while but had wandered a good ways toward the Host, so I decided to stop in and look around.

Those stairs have been redone.

There are only 2 facilities within "sane" walking distance. The Marriott itself, and the Holiday Inn 3 blocks north.

The next closest is about 1 mile. Too far to walk in July.

The real interesting wrinkle is, now that the parking scheme is a proven concept, how many people will shuck the 2 innermost sites at $150 USD a night in favor of commuting in from $50 USD-$100 rooms out on the strip to free parking. Non vendors and non GMs will surely be tempted.

The real interesting wrinkle is, now that the parking scheme is a proven concept

It will only be a proven parking concept when HMGS rectifies all the problems with GM loading/unloading.

The next closest is about 1 mile. Too far to walk in July.

Maybe for some. A mile in the morning and in the evening wouldn't be too bad. Twenty minutes walk and the selection of hotels and B&Bs improves by another four.

It will only be a proven parking concept when HMGS rectifies all the problems with GM loading/unloading.

A few complained--it doesn't make it a very common problem. The LCC should try to enforce the parking/standing areas for loading and unloading.

I'm not sure if this con even broke even.

And I'm sure you don't know any of that unless you know the costs of the Con at the FCC or LCC. And the figure of 2272 attendees is a 10% drop from last years figure of 2523. Pretty normal for changing venues to an unfamiliar location.

….and the reports on the LCC confirmed everything I was worried about.

You mean the vast amount of generally positive reports?

We moved from Fredericksburg because everyone was sqwaking about attendance. Well it didnt get any better at the HOST nor even in this awesome venue……

No. The numbers were up from the FCC. Check with HMGS.

It will only be a proven parking concept when HMGS rectifies all the problems with GM loading/unloading.

Agreed. And since that was one of the biggest concerns I know the BOD will work on that. Also making "club rooms" available.

A few complained--it doesn't make it a very common problem. The LCC should try to enforce the parking/standing areas for loading and unloading.

Agreed, again.

…..but as a vendor I can say my sales were down almost 50% from past Historicons

Truly sorry to hear that, Scott. No attendee wants that.

A few complained--it doesn't make it a very common problem.

Did you run games Saturday evening? Every GM without a Marriot room running Saturday evening ran into that problem whether they complained here or not.

And I'm sure you don't know any of that unless you know the costs of the Con at the FCC or LCC.

Did I say I know any of that for sure? No? Its clearly a guess based on these figures.

Historicon 2018: $119,000 USD USD in revenue and $86,000 USD USD in expenses for about $32,000 USD USD in profits (up from $2,965 USD USD profit in 2017).

FCC had similar attendance numbers in 2017 and the con wasn't paying $7 USD per day per person for parking, so I guess we'll have to wait for the next membership meeting minutes to know for sure.

The HMGS "archive" page accurately lists every Historicon and convention theme, but only lists the attendance for this year and last year.

Someone please refer me to a source page so that I can see the attendance for the last five years.

With regard to the question posed in the title of this thread, it does matter to me.

2007 3,272 Host
2008 3,667 Host
2009 3,565 Host
2010 2,980 VFCC
2011 2,946 VFCC
2012 2,720 Fredericksburg
2013 2,727 Fredericksburg
2014 2,441 Fredericksburg
2015 2,450 Fredericksburg
2016 2,336 Fredericksburg
2017 ???? Fredericksburg
2018 2,523 Host
2019 2,272 LCC

I'm sure someone else can fill in 2017

Thank you very much, TSD101. I appreciate your assistance.