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"D-Day to Berlin WWII XXX Level Rules" Topic


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31 Jul 2019 10:19 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Changed title from "WWII XXX Level Feedback Wanted" to "D-Day to Berlin WWII XXX Level Rules"

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greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP05 Jul 2019 8:29 p.m. PST

Friends, Country Men etc.

D-Day to Berlin WWII XXX Level Rules
The skeleton and inspiration for the game came from KISS Rommel.
I have developed a new set of WWII XXX level wargame rules. In this game units are battalions and in some cases company level detachments. The game is large scale with a turn representing about 2 hours. A day is 6-8 turns with a night time turn as well.
I play with 15mm troops with an infantry battalion stand being 50mm x 30mm (FOW basing).
Ground scale is 350 to 600 yards to an inch.
Weapon range scale is 350 yards to the inch while tactical scale is 600 Yards to the inch. This makes a mile tactically about 3". Players are at a minimum a Division commander with 8-12 battalions and artillery support. Experienced players can control 2-3 XX which makes them a XXX commander.
I have the written rules half done but I have just finished a working QRS with enough details (IMHO) to play or at least give you a feel for the game.
If you are interested you can email me at sentry1212@dayofbattle.com. Please mention why you are interested and I will send you the QRS and Western Front army cards as a pdf by return e-mail.
If and when I publish these anybody that is involved at this point will get a free pdf version.
Thanks ahead of time.
Chris

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP05 Jul 2019 8:59 p.m. PST

I have some nice pictures of a Bulge game where Patton's III Corp attempts to push through to Berlin on my dedicated FB Page.


https://www.facebook.com/DDaytoBerlin

Personal logo Old Contemptible Supporting Member of TMP06 Jul 2019 2:56 a.m. PST

Not everyone is on FB. Do you have a real website for your rules?

Durban Gamer06 Jul 2019 4:50 a.m. PST

Very interesting project, Chris!

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jul 2019 6:01 a.m. PST

Not just yet. I will put a page very soon at chrisparkergames.com

Thank you

Chris

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jul 2019 6:49 a.m. PST

I just put up a quick page for those interested parties. Both the QRS and Unit Cards are there as a free pdf download.

There are a few pics to look at right now. More to come.

For the curious the red and blue cocktail swords on the table are XX boundary lines.

link

Thank you

Chris

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Jul 2019 10:35 a.m. PST

Here is a gallery page I have set up

link

batesmotel3407 Jul 2019 10:19 a.m. PST

I played these in a Bulge game Chris ran at Havoc and they seemed to work well then with a few rough edges and some quirkiness about how unit boundaries are handled.

Definitely worth a look.

Chris

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Jul 2019 5:07 a.m. PST

batesmotel34 – thank you for the compliment and reaching out to me on FB. I have sent you the links.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Jul 2019 5:10 a.m. PST

I thought I would post a few pictures here as well to help get a little interest going.

The squares are something I use to show terrain zones. D-Day to Berlin is not a square based game.

CCB_4th Arm XX

4th Arm XX Advances

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP09 Jul 2019 4:03 p.m. PST

picture

Lee49410 Jul 2019 4:02 p.m. PST

I tried for four years to make a Corps level game for Micro Armor. Played well but I was amazed at the relative lack of interest for this level of combat. Wish you luck!

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP12 Jul 2019 2:42 p.m. PST

Thanks you for the encouragement. I know there isn't a lot of interest in the level. I think most games are into either platoon maneuver units so maybe a Regimental level or single man units. It is easier to relate to and a lot more chrome to enjoy. ROF , side armor value etc.

Would you be interested in sharing your work from the game?

williamb12 Jul 2019 4:54 p.m. PST

Looks interesting. There is another set of rules at that scale Division Commander by Bruce McFarlane. Minimum frontage for a battalion is about 1000 meters. This applies even today. link Has a link in the post to WW2 unit frontages.

Lee49412 Jul 2019 4:57 p.m. PST

I'd be interested in perhaps partnering to produce a game. Or perhaps two games lol. Mine were virtually ready for publication.

Are you in the USA perhaps we can chat by phone. Meanwhile check out my website.

actionsrules.com

These rules are NOT on it but you can see my other work and use the Contact Us Tab to email me your phone number. Lee

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Jul 2019 5:51 a.m. PST

#williamb

I would disagree with you regarding Ross's rules. I own them and to me they are XX level not XXX. He allows way to many support units at the lower level. In my game these are part of the battalion unit.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Jul 2019 5:54 a.m. PST

#lee494

I live in USA (Maine)

I believe we share the same publisher (Dennis?)

Chris

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Jul 2019 6:07 a.m. PST

#FB Post

"Saw your post on the miniatures page. The rules appear to have some similarity to CWG Division Commander rules, but I would need to read them to see how they compare. Why the difference in scales between weapons and tactical? Also you may find the information on this website of interest regarding unit frontages due to the scale of the rules. "

I thought I would post my reply here vs FB as a lot of you aren't on FB.

I have noted elsewhere if not here that I technically use two ground scales. Let me back up and again give credit for my rules to KISS Rommel. Though a little more simple than I personally want I have played the crap out of it and it is a very good game.

Those rules were originally designed for the desert war and they allowed AYG 988mm) to attack out to 9". Most others were 6". I rationalized that the 9" range was to acknowledge the fact that some sources claim the 88mm could hit and destroy most tanks at 3000 yards. I see this rule as chrome esp. for Western Europe but left it in. So I decided that my ground scale for tactical reasons would be around 350 yards to the inch.

Speaking of ranges, the 6" combat or shooting range is not meant to represent individual weapons shooting. Rather it is a combination of battalion weapons such as mortars , longer range mg's and even attached artillery from XX. I also assume local advances are being made at platoon and even company level in that zone.

Finally I settled on 600 yards per inch for my map scale. Again this was more of a game decision. I personally use 6" for my table cloth to allow me to mark out terrain areas so this made 3" equal a mile. Therefore my 4' x 6' table top was about 24 miles wide by 12 miles deep.

It all feels right to me.

Lee49413 Jul 2019 12:18 p.m. PST

Chris, yes Dennis is my publisher as well. My scale was 1" to 500m or 2" is 1 Kilometer. Individual minis are companies or batteries and they move as a Battalion Group on Bases which approximate WWII frontages. Remember these rules were designed for 1/300 scale which works well. You can do some really big battles with it!

One of my favorites is KG Peiper in the Bulge. One Historicon we threw several 6 foot tables end to end and did Market Garden. All 100+ Kilometers of it! Totally different perspective … huge table and every 4 or 5 feet there was this Island of perhaps a dozen Para Battalion Bases linked only by The Road and surrounded by a sea of Germans randomly arriving. Whole new perspective. Cheers

PS and I've also played Gazala The Cauldron a number of times.

williamb13 Jul 2019 1:49 p.m. PST

I am not sure who Ross is. The rules I am referring to are written by Bruce McFarlane. He has published multiple scenario books to go with the rules and they are all multi-division engagements. Ground scale is three inches to a mile and turns vary from 90 minutes to an hour. As can be seen by the picture in the link below there are no units smaller than a battalion in a division.
link

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Jul 2019 4:40 p.m. PST

williamb

I do apologize.

I meant Bruce but my mind slipped. I know another gamer from Canada with the same last name but his first is Ross.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP15 Jul 2019 4:46 p.m. PST

#williamb

Well I am going to eat some crow. I was thinking of his "Great Battles Rules" where a base is a company. I looked at his info on Div. Commander. Not much to go on for $35 USD I will give you that.

Thank you

Chris

williamb15 Jul 2019 5:16 p.m. PST

They are a bit expensive for PDF downloads. I am curious to see how yours differ from his.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP16 Jul 2019 4:54 a.m. PST

I will admit that I too am curious about that too. Judging from the Little image you posted it looks like he too started with KISS Rommel. I think for the sake of originality, (is there such a thin in wargame design) I will not buy a copy.

I did download and read over his two page download and it looks like he uses Divisional orders something like Spearhead. My rules don't have orders.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP17 Jul 2019 11:01 a.m. PST

Friends

I have completed my first working draft of DDtB. It is 33 pages long. I also have OOB for US and German forces for 1944-45 NW Europe and the QRS.

The documents are in pdf form.

As you can all understand I want to keep track of who has a copy and I only want to share with those of you who are really interested in the subject.

So if you would like a proofing copy I would ask you to go to the Policy page on my website. I will put the link below. There in the text you will find my e-mail address. Copy that and send me an e-mail.

I will reply back ASAP with the documents.

I assure you I will not spam or share your information nor add them to any of my game e-mail lists unless you ask.

TY

Chris

link

Lee49418 Jul 2019 3:05 p.m. PST

Chris can we give feedback here to try an garner other input or do you want it via direct email to you? Thanks! Lee

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP19 Jul 2019 7:09 p.m. PST

Hi Lee

Thank you yes though I will leave it up to you. If you find something that maybe I should see it in private then drop me an e-mail otherwise please do.

Chris :)

Lee49421 Jul 2019 5:33 a.m. PST

Feedback. I noticed in your US Arm Div TOE you had only one Battalion of SP Arty, which I assume is because their 54 guns closely approximated the number of tanks in a Battalion. In my rules I found it was better to have the Battalions historical with 18 guns and adjust their stats. That allows historical employment of a Battalion supporting each CCA, CCB, CCR. I have gotten good results when I adjusted rules to allow using historical tactics rather than vice versa. Cheers!

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP21 Jul 2019 3:36 p.m. PST

#lee494

Lee

First off thank you for your reply.

After doing my own reading etc. I decided to look from the top down with these rules and furthermore I don't want to clutter the table with too many support units.

That being said I find most divisions have 3 medium gun units and 1 heavy gun unit. This isn't always true but fairly standard. I decided that the medium gun units were parceled out to the combat units before the battle began and were therefore already factored into their combat values. I allowed the heavy unit to be on call for the division and therefore given it's own unit stand.

If we take a CCA as your example it would be 1 x tank battalion, 1 x armored battalion and maybe a tank destroyer, recon or light tank battalion x1. If we add an artillery battalion to this I feel it is overkill.

Chris

Lee49421 Jul 2019 6:03 p.m. PST

Interesting approach. That's what makes gaming so much fun! Lee

williamb22 Jul 2019 9:58 a.m. PST

American artillery was not parceled out to the various combat units. Each regimental combat team had an artillery battalion that was kept as a battalion. The same applied to the armored divisions where there were three self propelled battalions with one usually assigned to each combat command. In addition the American army adopted the fire direct center which was developed by Majors Brewer and Ward. The allowed a forward observer to call all of a battalion's artillery on a single target and even additional battalions from the division or higher level if needed. Prior to this all armies had treated the battery as the highest level of control. Since WW2 all major powers have adopted FDC's. Source "Stars and Stripes Forever" by Frank Chadwick, page 40, Field Artillery Doctrine. Other sources can be found on the internet by searching for WW2 U. S. Army artillery doctrine.

While not as fast as the Germans, who did parcel out artillery batteries to individual battalions giving them a faster response time than other nations, this did allow much more effective use of the American artillery.

The British also adopted a similar method of fire control as the war progressed.

The Russians kept their artillery concentrated, but relied more on pre-planned barrages and made extensive use of assault gun battalions to provide direct artillery support during the advance.

GamesPoet Supporting Member of TMP31 Jul 2019 9:10 a.m. PST

I played in a KISS Rommel game that Chris hosted at one of the MHWA's Game Days earlier this year. It had 3 players on each side U.S. vs. Germany. I found those rules to be a bit clunky in places, although not sure why. Even still it was challenging and enjoyable.

However, after participating in a play test of his new "D-Day to Berlin" rules this past weekend, these seem to be a bit smoother, and again not really sure why.

Also, it could take a player who is more adjusted to smaller scale games a little bit to wrap one's head around this larger scale, some may even claim it's a board game. However, it is my sense that when a person keeps in mind that a player is pretending to be a corp commander (or a division commander in a multi player game), things can begin to make more sense as to why the rules are structured as they are.

Additionally, I like the idea that this game is using measuring tape or ruler distances, and not squares nor hexes, which gives me more of a feeling of tabletop miniatures game than a board game.

GamesPoet Supporting Member of TMP31 Jul 2019 9:18 a.m. PST

By the way, we played with one rule change … that when a stand (battalion or detached company) is within 3 inches of a commander, there's no need to roll to move. This was figuring that in most instances where the division commander is with in about a mile of the stand that an order is clearly received, and the battalion is more likely to move as ordered as well.

Not sure how accurate this idea was in the field, yet it seemed to give some additional value to the positioning of the leader stand. That is besides being within the range of control also provided in the rules for increasing the likelihood that a unit moves as ordered.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP31 Jul 2019 10:03 a.m. PST

I have created a picture folder of the game mentioned by Games[poet above. There are 12 images and posted info on each picture describing the action and what the different markers were.

They are on the dreaded Facebook so I realize many of you won't be able to see it.

Sorry

link

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Aug 2019 2:53 p.m. PST

Here is a short introductory video I have made on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/BQmTV6No0S8

Lee49407 Aug 2019 4:22 a.m. PST

Very helpful video to visualize the rules. Also well done! Can you do one on combat resolution? Cheers!

GamesPoet Supporting Member of TMP07 Aug 2019 6:05 p.m. PST

At end of that first video it was mentioned he'll be doing game sequence and combat.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 10:45 a.m. PST

Playing and design has gone along nicely. I have had a number of good fact to face games with friends. I have however decided to move to squares Ala "Rommel", Square Bashing, "To the Strongest" and "Strategos". I find players can now easily command a corp of three divisions.

I plan on attending Fall In this year and I have two games for D-Day to Berlin scheduled as well as a game each of Light Bobs and Day of Battle.

Chris

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Sep 2019 10:51 a.m. PST

BTW

I you can download the game, QRS and Staff cards here for free.

link

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP24 Sep 2019 2:21 p.m. PST

The free Beta version is ready for download.

link

picture

Marc33594 Supporting Member of TMP25 Sep 2019 6:06 a.m. PST

Downloaded and will have to give them a good looking over. Like the concept

GamesPoet Supporting Member of TMP28 Sep 2019 6:49 a.m. PST

I like the cover. Sometimes I wonder who the guys are in the pictures. This one looks like he was caught off guard, in motion, yet name called to get his attention.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Oct 2019 12:25 p.m. PST

He was actually in a series of 3 pictures I believe. All found from captured German archives.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Oct 2019 12:27 p.m. PST

More Game Pictures

picture

picture

GamesPoet Supporting Member of TMP03 Dec 2019 1:41 p.m. PST

Recently played a game with the most recent rule changes. Going from measuring to squares makes for a slightly quicker and efficient game. Although I miss moving the units with the distances.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP04 Feb 2020 7:42 p.m. PST

I have recently moved so the progress has slowed. :(

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP13 Feb 2020 9:06 p.m. PST

Wow 12 downloads in two days. Thank you and thanks to all those with questions and ideas. I will be back on this after the weekend.

pfmodel23 Feb 2020 3:32 p.m. PST

I downloaded the rules and they look very interesting. I just need to work out out how to place squares on my playing areas, which is made up of flocked 30cm cork tiles.

greenknight4 Sponsoring Member of TMP27 May 2020 6:52 a.m. PST

PFModel

I started out by using small stones to mark off 1' squares and then imagined where the center dot would be to turn the square into 4 sections.

At a convention I used a felt table cloth and small black stick on dots to do this.
Thank you for the kind words. make sure you get vs 4.0

Chris

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