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"Inaccurate Warlord Games North Koreans" Topic


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11 Jul 2019 6:05 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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Henry Martini30 Jun 2019 7:58 p.m. PST

Some of the forthcoming Warlord Games North Koreans are depicted armed with the SKS carbine, based on information in the relevant Osprey MAA, but numerous threads on online firearms discussion groups make it clear that this weapon wasn't issued to NK troops. In fact, it was still in test mode with the Soviet military, so although it's possible a few might have found their way to Korea in the hands of Russian advisers, it wasn't being produced en masse for Soviet forces, never mind exported to allied armies.

Should WG be taken to task for lazy, shallow research, or is Osprey as deep as a figure manufacturer should be expected to dig when designing new products?

Henry Martini30 Jun 2019 8:03 p.m. PST

I couldn't delete this from the Napoleonic Product Reviews board without also deleting it from the boards I want it on, so Napoleonic gamers please disregard it… for obvious reasons :-).

Personal logo mrwigglesworth Supporting Member of TMP30 Jun 2019 9:19 p.m. PST

Maybe they are the SVT40?

Henry Martini01 Jul 2019 2:51 a.m. PST

Apparently there's no evidence for the use of that rifle by communist forces either, mrwigglesworth.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 2:56 a.m. PST

Hmmm. Well, you should certainly beat up Osprey. Warlord should be made aware of the problem. Even if it's too late to fix early production, molds are remade from time to time.

But I'll have to pass on the deeper question. I just don't know what sort of research getting it right would have required, and what that would do to the cost of figures. Say--picking numbers out of the air--Osprey-level research gives you an accurate figure 99% of the time, and archival or archaeological research ups that to 99.5% (because nothing is 100% successful.) If flying your researcher to the necessary places and putting him up for a week adds $0.50 USD to the cost of a figure, would you pay the additional money to be confident of the one additional accurate figure in 200? Because I probably would not.

Personal logo mrwigglesworth Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 3:31 a.m. PST

For what it's worth I looked up Wikipedia.
Both the SKS and SV40 are listed as used in the Korean war……
Just saying.

irishserb Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 4:19 a.m. PST

Accuracy in my games is dependent on me, so I don't really care. I haven't seen the Osprey, so don't know when they depict NK as having the weapon. So don't know if they are wrong or not. The Korean war has yet to end, and NK has had the SKS, or at least copies and variants in service. My general belief is that they didn't have it before the armistice.

link

link

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 5:54 a.m. PST

For what it's worth, in Col. Hackworth's book "Brave Men" he mentions a NK soldier with an SKS. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an SKS or two somewhere, but I think Nagants, Arisakas and Chinese Mausers would be much more common as far as rifles and carbines go.

cloudcaptain01 Jul 2019 6:17 a.m. PST

We've seen them using the Bizon and Bren guns with the blueing worn/rubbed off. There are bound to be SKSes in that arsenal. Heck they probably have Mosins as mentioned.

Lord Hill01 Jul 2019 7:16 a.m. PST

I couldn't delete this from the Napoleonic Product Reviews board without also deleting it from the boards I want it on, so Napoleonic gamers please disregard it… for obvious reasons :-).

Actually, you'll find several threads on the Nap board questioning aspects of historical accuracy for Warlord figures – for example, their Hannovarian infantry and also their British Napoleonic Cavalry plastic sets. So useful to know it extends to other periods!

Personal logo Andrew Walters Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 8:12 a.m. PST

If the choice is whether to believe Osprey MAA or "numerous threads on online firearms discussion groups", well, there's your problem.

Russian "testing" often involved giving the latest weapons to people in Asia fighting the US.

The SKS page on wikipedia indicates that the North Koreans used and manufactured the SKS, though as for timing one reference I can't follow says that it was "limited issue" during the Korean War.

Legion 401 Jul 2019 8:13 a.m. PST

I do believe they used the SKS … Among a number of small arms as already mentioned, from various sources.

Pan Marek Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 8:46 a.m. PST

Irish- Well, it is called "historical" wargaming. And I suppose the figs being discussed are for the 1950-53 conflict.

magical monstrous steve01 Jul 2019 12:46 p.m. PST

While we're on the subject of the accuracy or Warlord's new Korea figures, I don't think Klinger ever wore that outfit.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 1:05 p.m. PST

Good point, Lord Hill. That Hanoverian box seems to have been invented pretty much out of whole cloth. I bought it, but only for parts.

Paul at Warlord Games Sponsoring Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 1:22 p.m. PST

While we're on the subject of the accuracy or Warlord's new Korea figures, I don't think Klinger ever wore that outfit.
picture

magical monstrous steve01 Jul 2019 1:46 p.m. PST

God catch. I was joking, poking a little fun at the folks miffed at the SKS rifles. Great job making that MASH pack.

Personal logo PaulCollins Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 5:30 p.m. PST

I don't even play the Korean War, but I'm going to have to get the MASH unit.

Henry Martini01 Jul 2019 5:47 p.m. PST

The Hackforth reference gets several mentions on those fora. Given the fallibility of human memory, the fact that his memoir was written forty years after the fact, and that it's the only positive record of SKS use in Korea between 1950 and 1953, I think it should probably be treated with great scepticism.

From my reading of those firearms fora it was clear that the question of SKS use in Korea has been a longstanding bugbear in that community; so much so that a couple of posters admitted to having researched the subject in depth over decades. The most knowledgeable of them have done intensive searches through hundreds of period photographs and official documents for any evidence and have drawn a blank.

Even when the weapon has been present in Korean museums dedicated to the conflict, upon close examination of the displays expert visitors have found them wanting: they usually turn out to be post-war Chinese Type 56 pieces.

As anyone involved in this hobby (including Warlord Games) should know, Robert, although the best of its titles are excellent, Osprey has had a reputation for sloppy research at times, and as I said, I discovered the facts with a couple of hours of online reading; a form of research that should be well within the means of Warlord Games.

The obvious lesson of this minor debacle is to not rely solely on Osprey when researching for the design of figures and/or models.

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 6:42 p.m. PST

I agree with all of your points re. Hackworth, which is why I prefaced with "For what it's worth." It can easily be a mistake or misremembering something.

Given the facts that Osprey is known to have printed some screw ups, I don't get the dig at firearms forums, as if only unlettered buffoons post on them.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP02 Jul 2019 1:29 a.m. PST

Osprey are the publishers. Not entirely responsible for accuracy of content therefore I feel. One might argue that there should be updates with obvious errata highlighted.

Surely it is the many authors who claim expertise, which is why the quality can vary so much from one book to the next.

magical monstrous steve02 Jul 2019 1:47 a.m. PST

Isn't it possible that someone did due diligence in regard to the research and is still wrong? Can we not accept that as an acceptable fault? SLA Marshall's work was discredited decades ago and yet it is still cited because there is no single clearing house for the "truth". I suggest that anyone really bothered by the SKSs file off the magazines.

dwight shrute02 Jul 2019 5:05 a.m. PST

there's an SKS in the inchon museum link

but also an AK ?

Legion 402 Jul 2019 7:36 a.m. PST

Yes, I've also seen an M47 being called a tank used in the Korean War. huh? Which we know is wrong.

I do remember standing in front of an M26 as Korean War Monument somewhere in the ROK. old fart used in that war.


I suggest that anyone really bothered by the SKSs file off the magazines.
Sounds like workable solution.

AFAIK the SKS was issued to USSR troops in @ 1949. But it saw limited use in the Korean War, '50-'53.

Sundance02 Jul 2019 11:03 a.m. PST

I've found other minis that weren't historically correct because someone got lazy or didn't bother to actually do any research.

magical monstrous steve02 Jul 2019 11:30 a.m. PST

How do you know what research was or wasn't done? Or that someone was lazy? Did you contact anyone at warlord or simply make assumptions?

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP03 Jul 2019 1:21 a.m. PST

I think it has proved great that this appeared on the Napoleonic Forum. We will, debate endlessly, with no evidence other than artwork from decades later, quite when and where some change in uniform was seen. Now we know the same applies within living memory!


Warlord at their best can be great, if pricey. But sometimes really disappoint with lack of research. Bit like Osprey's inconsistency. Sometimes too ambitious and superficial, sometimes dreadful illustrations and artwork but often superb and where would we be without? Factual errors, blame the authors.

ConnaughtRanger03 Jul 2019 12:40 p.m. PST

So true – we would be so much better off in this hobby without such shysters as Osprey and Warlord Games.

magical monstrous steve03 Jul 2019 2:35 p.m. PST

How big do you think the hobby would be after it's been "purified" from companies like warlord and osprey? How many fewer options would we have?

Henry Martini03 Jul 2019 6:22 p.m. PST

That should be '…"purified" of…', and such futile histrionics are clearly just intended to divert attention from the subject of this discussion, magical monstrous (evil) steve.

I don't quite see how filing off the magazines would create more accurate miniatures; you'd merely be left with figures with mutilated incorrect weapons. As a solution to a flaw that wouldn't have existed with competent research it's a farcical suggestion.

In the interests of honest discussion could you please declare your connection with Warlord Games, if any.

There's an animated thread on this subject on LAF.

Legion 404 Jul 2019 7:02 a.m. PST

I've gamed historical since my long passed youth in the 60s. old fart But after 10 + years playing 1 to 1 scale wargames all over the world in the US Army. When I got home I just went with Sci-Fi. You don't really have any "real" history to go by, etc., … evil grin

But I still base a lot on history and my decade + as a Grunt … evil grin

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP04 Jul 2019 9:14 a.m. PST

I thought only US Marines were Grunts.

I learn summat every day on this forum.

Legion 405 Jul 2019 7:45 a.m. PST

Nope … Army Infantry were [and may still be ?] called Grunts … As well as a number of other things … evil grin

ConnaughtRanger05 Jul 2019 2:48 p.m. PST

"How big do you think the hobby would be after it's been "purified" from companies like warlord and osprey? How many fewer options would we have? "
Sarcasm never survives a trans-Atlantic journey.

Henry Martini10 Jul 2019 8:42 p.m. PST

I wonder if a possible solution for those who want to use the Warlord figures but want to keep things historically accurate might be to buy the packs and sell off the SKS-armed figures to those doing the Korean War who are less concerned with historical accuracy, or to gamers doing the Soviets in Afghanistan, as Afghan DRA.

I also wonder if Warlord Games might consider making up rifle squad packs without SKS-armed figures for the historical purists amongst us. Although it would be a bit of a come down in that it would constitute an open admission of error, it might mean the company would garner a lot of sales it would otherwise miss out on. Personally I would be more impressed by a WG that's honest about its stuff-ups than one that tried to pretend or excuse/explain them away; it's such a rarity in the business world.

The NK figures are rather nice, BTW.

Henry Martini11 Jul 2019 3:27 a.m. PST

I've discovered a website called 'No Dice, No Glory', which gives some forum space to all periods and game systems in a generalised manner, but which has boards specifically dedicated to the products of the big movers and shakers such as Warlord Games, and of those, Bolt Action gets most of the… action.

This site seems (unsurprisingly?) to be specially favoured by WG, because it features some in-depth analysis of the forthcoming Korean War supplement based on an advance copy, photos of miniatures from it, and also comments from the book's authors. Additionally, there's an article on the site by one Matt Sokekoff about the supplement's treatment of NKPA forces in which he expresses surprise at the armament of the NKPA figures.

A propos my previous post, if WG was prepared to sell SKS-free packs, to save embarrassment maybe they could be a 'stealth' option; i.e. not advertised on the website, but available by special request.

Personal logo deadhead Supporting Member of TMP11 Jul 2019 5:44 a.m. PST

Well I guess the Korean War never really ended and could have turned hot again at any stage….after the introduction of the SKS.

Must agree they would make far better Afghan National Army figures. My first impression on seeing them.

Henry Martini11 Jul 2019 9:30 p.m. PST

Analysis of force ratios in Korea revealed that the average numerical odds facing UN forces were 8:1.

The articles on NDNG go into some detail about the BA KW supplement army lists, highlighting the fact that Communist forces can potentially field company-size infantry formations against UN platoons. I think this just reinforces my point that plastics would have been a better option for NKPA and CPA at least. Maybe WG should rethink its position on this. With so many figures required to field communist armies it's conceivable that the lack of plastics might actually act to discourage gamers from investing in the period. A plastic NKPA set would also give WG another chance to get the small arms right.

SeattleGamer Supporting Member of TMP15 Jul 2019 1:44 p.m. PST

Thanks for the tip regarding "No Dice, No Glory" site. Enjoyed reading the various previews. Pretty sure their lists of tanks allowed is wrong, but it's a game, and I can see why they might want to support "what if" possibilities.

Man, a plastic set for NKPA and/or CPA would really have been ideal, giving the size of the force that can be fielded.

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