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"Something I have always wondered about" Topic


15 Posts

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4th Cuirassier30 Jun 2019 7:44 a.m. PST

Why was it so often the case that a tank's driving wheel (sprocket) was at the front even though the engine was at the back?

You end up with a gratuitously long drive train linkage. Why not just drive the rearmost wheel and make the front most the idler?

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse30 Jun 2019 7:56 a.m. PST

AFAIK it really depended on the overall design of the vehicle. And the tech at the time. But from an engineering/design standpoint link

But if you notice many modern tanks have the drive sprocket in the rear.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP30 Jun 2019 8:09 a.m. PST

Transmission needed to be as close to the driver
sprocket as possible. If the tran was located
in the rear, the drive train would necessarily be
longer, possibly more complicated and leading to
more mechanical failures.

The tran also needed to be as close to the human
driver as possible, so…

Lion in the Stars30 Jun 2019 10:05 a.m. PST

Manual transmissions needed to be close to the driver, who sits at the front of the tank. And a tank transmission includes the final drives (it's like a front-wheel-drive car that way), so the drive sprockets end up being up front.

emckinney30 Jun 2019 10:14 a.m. PST

Also helps a bit keeping the turret in the middle of the hull. Transmission in the rear would make the engine compartment a few feet longer, nose a few feet shorter.

Fred Cartwright30 Jun 2019 12:59 p.m. PST

Not all WW2 tanks had the drive sprocket at the front. Most Russian and British tanks had them at the back. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Having the sprocket at the front means running a drive shaft through the tank, but keeps the gearbox controls close to the driver. You also have the full length of the track to knock any mud/debris off the tracks before it gets to the sprocket which makes it less likely to get anything jammed in there. Having it at the back means short drive shafts and minimises power loss in the drive train, but long linkages for the gearbox which can make gear changing stiff and tiring, and maybe why the T34 drivers needed a hammer to change gear. Also any crud is taken straight up into the sprocket.

The Beast Rampant30 Jun 2019 1:45 p.m. PST

I have wondered this as well- very informative, folks!

Ragbones30 Jun 2019 3:29 p.m. PST

There's some darn smart people here! I don't claim to be one of them…

Wolfhag30 Jun 2019 9:52 p.m. PST

Also, the transmission in the rear allowed the front glacis to be more steeply sloped. This is why tanks with transmissions in the front (German and American) don't have the steeply sloped front armor. You need a drive shaft through the middle bottom of the tank making the profile higher too. Like any design, it's about tradeoffs.

With the drive sprocket in the front backing up and turning would pull dirt and debris into the drive sprocket and could cause damage to the drive train. The Panther had that problem. The transmission did add some protection to the crew too.

Modern tanks are going to have engine and transmission in the rear for a low silhouette and steep glacis.

Wolfhag

4th Cuirassier01 Jul 2019 1:43 a.m. PST

The point about the long linkage for the driver is a good one I hadn't thought of.

I struggle a bit with the idea of the muck making any difference though.

Fred Cartwright01 Jul 2019 2:59 a.m. PST

Also, the transmission in the rear allowed the front glacis to be more steeply sloped.

You can put the transmission at the point of a > shaped front, which is effectively what the Panther does to get round that problem.

With the drive sprocket in the front backing up and turning would pull dirt and debris into the drive sprocket and could cause damage to the drive train.

That is only a problem if you are doing a neutral turn by reversing 1 track or backing up. It is more of a problem for rear sprocket tanks where normal forward movement pulls debris into the sprocket.

Modern tanks are going to have engine and transmission in the rear for a low silhouette and steep glacis.

Technology has solved most of the problems for rear sprockets. There probably aren't any physical links between the drivers controls and engine/transmission anymore it is all controlled electronically.

Mark 1 Supporting Member of TMP01 Jul 2019 2:09 p.m. PST

This will repeat some issues others have mentioned, but might add a few more, and put it all together.

As I understand it, the common reasons that tanks had sprockets at the front were:

- Locating the final drive/transmission close to the driver makes shifting gears more manageable.
Others have mentioned this. Give some thought to the stories about how hard it was to shift gears in T-34s or KV-1s, with transmissions in the rear. Mallets were provided as an aid to driving.

- Track tensioning.
The track under the roadwheels doesn't care about tension. But the track along the upper run (the return run) does. Drive sprockets in the back push the track along the return run. That encourages slack. Drive sprockets in the front pull the track along the return run. That encourages tension. Doesn't mean you can't make a working tensioning system with rear sprockets, just that it takes more attention and exprience. T-34s and British cruisers, with sprockets in the rear, were notorious for shedding their tracks.

- Debris in the sprockets.
The tracks will be cleaner when reach the sprocket in front sprocket designs. In rear sprockets everything the tracks pick up goes straight into the sprockets. In front sprockets the tracks have the entire length of the return run to shed the crud they've picked up. That means less wear, less friction, and less likelyhood of shedding a track when driving cross country in a front sprocket design.

- More even weight distribution.
Both engine and transmission are big hulking metal things. Lots of weight. Splitting them front-and-back in the tank is more balanced than putting them all in the back. Balance helps gunnery -- tanks rock less when they stop driving, or when they fire the main gun and suffer recoil effects. First shots from short-halt, and second shots, can be on-target faster if the tank doesn't rock too much.

All of that said, though, most tank producing countries came to realize that the best solution was having the drive sprockets in the rear. Main reasons were:

- It's easier to make a faster tank.
This is what drove Christie to it, IIRC. If you pull the tracks up from under the tank (with rear sprockets) then gravity is on your side. You nose the tank down a bit, and the tank "falls" forward over the tracks. Not a big thing, but even 5% makes a difference when you're trying to move something that weighs many tons. Less of a concern today, as engines produce more than enough power and are more often governed back to efficient component life. But made a difference in the past.

- Drive sprockets are prone to damage. They require stiff straight axles to work properly, and those axles are just the outer-most extension of all kinds of expensive moving mechanical parts. Any wobble in a drive axle can damage the final drive and tranny -- muy bad! Tensioning wheels, on the other hand, are just free-spinning, and their axles are spring-loaded, and they can often tolerate a bit of wobble (yes, too much and you risk shedding your track, but at least you won't wreck your final drive), and are far faster and easier to replace. The front of the tank tends to bump into stuff (walls, trees, HE rounds). Put the sprockets in the rear and you have fewer tanks in repair depots.

- All the weight of engine and tranny in the rear can be balanced by lots of thick armor on the front. Armor provides WAY better protection than sticking the tranny up front, and helps just as much to keep the tank from rocking. Seriously, the experience-driven realization that you need to put disproportionately more armor on the front helped drive the tranny and final drive to the rear.

- More compact designs are possible when you put engine/tranny/final drive together. Smaller power train means less interior volume means less area to armor means less weight for the same thickness of armor means more weight to thickness than area means better protection. Smaller tanks with more armor and it's easier to pull and replace your power pack. What's not to like?

These factors tend to out-weight any concern about tensioning and debris. Make a tougher track, put better return rollers, whatever, as long as your tanks are smaller, better protected, and don't wind up in the depot every time they bump into a log.

At least that's my understanding.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Personal logo Legion 4 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse01 Jul 2019 2:49 p.m. PST

And don't scratch the paint !

Regardless, some pretty good posts !

Tgerritsen Supporting Member of TMP02 Jul 2019 6:52 a.m. PST

Informative? I'd say it was… transformative.

:)

Lion in the Stars02 Jul 2019 11:28 a.m. PST

Modern tanks are going to have engine and transmission in the rear for a low silhouette and steep glacis.

With the notable exceptions of the Merkava and the old US Army FCS prototypes, both of which (apparently) use the engine and/or drivetrain as additional armor to protect the crew.

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