"Cruel Seas torpedo question" Topic

We're going to try out Cruel Seas for the first time tonight. I have a question about torpedo quantity and reloads.

I assume the British MTBs have no reloads, The Vosper Mk I has two torpedoes and the Mk II has four.

But what about the German E Boats? While they have two launchers, they have 2 reloads on the deck. Are they just for modeling purposes or do the E Boats get to reload? I don't see any rules concerning reloading or reload times. Is there any thoughts about this or some suggestions?

Many thanks in advance,

Dave

Reloading the torpedoes on an E boat took quite some time , even for an experienced crew. It would not have been done during an engagement with very high speeds. The boats would disengage , reload and resume the attack. I think this is outside of the game?!

If you wanted to reload maybe house rule it. I would say slow speed for 2 turns and no other weapon use during reloading might work.

How long is a turn in Cruel Seas?

On the one hand, even destroyers rarely carried torpedo reloads, and they were out for weeks at a time. If an E-boat that's only going to be out for hours or days is carrying two extra torpedoes (pretty well established), there must have been some likelihood that they would reload.

On the other hand, a torpedo weighs well over 3,000 lbs. Close to 3,500, depending on the variant. I think they have to charge the compressed air, too.

Google is not helping. Images of the vessels don't show a winch, but the reloads are directly behind the tubes. Maybe you just move that ladder, open the hatch, and slide them in. They appear to be on some kind of track. If the crew aren't too busy (ie firing guns) they might work on both tubes at once. I have no idea how long it would take to charge the air, though.

Two turns seems pretty fast. It might depend on the seas. If the designers didn't give a time, maybe that means their research said it shouldn't happen during a battle. That would be my guess.

But two turns seems pretty quick.

AW,

I am in your camp. There is no time scale that I can see in the rules, and given the scale of the game, I'm thinking you have what you have…..

Given they are Germans, reloads would be possible. Two turns of inaction sounds about right.

Finding out how long it takes a sub to reload a tube might give some idea as to the time such an operation would take.

Greetings

I have seen an (unsourced) reference of 3 minutes for an S-boote reload but out of the action and either stationary or nearly so. I have found a reference to an S-boat (S30) at Dunkirk(?) retreating to reload {Schnellboote p.52). .

Regards

Edward

I have read in various places that a WWII sub took anywhere between 2 and 15 minutes to reload a tube, assuming a straight and level trajectory.

S boats did normally carry a reload. I dont know the time off hand but it wasn't long. I believe the turns incruel seas are pretty loose. 2 turns to reload is not unreasonable but agree the boat should be moving slow without crazy turns.

We go with 3 turns at slow or stationary speeds without firing to reload. As mentioned above these things were big and very heavy even for a well trained crew.

Knowing the time required for other vessels doesn't actually help as much as you'd think. It depends entirely on the configuration. Sometimes a winch is involved. Some German subs had their reloads stored outside the pressure hull, under the decking. Some Japanese destroyers were laid out specifically to allow fast reloads. Googling around I saw different times from 3 minutes to 30 minutes for various ships. So we really need to find a specific source for these boats.

But if a tactical boat carries reloads, it can be reloaded. You don't carry 7,000 lbs of expensive and explosive ordnance if you can't use it.

Still, I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was three minutes and I wouldn't be surprised if the answer was twenty minutes. The former is more than two turns in Cruel Seas (I expect), the latter is entirely outside the scope of a single game.

Thanks everyone, great conversation.

This is the reason TMP exists.

This is the reason TMP exists. grin

Not until we get in an argument about the G7a(TI) vs the G7e!

From what I've read – battle accounts, and knowing how they're laid out, it does seem as if sometimes they would carry reloads, while other times they would not.

Extra weight could adversely affect handing, and is a "bomb" waiting to explode, if hit in just the right place by enemy fire.

I guess it depends upon the sortie mission, anticipated enemy contact, time of the war, etc., etc..

Sometimes, for all sides, torpedo reloads were hard to come by.

Given the layout of the S-Boats, as long as speeds are very low, or the water very smooth, it appears like reloading the torpedo tubes would be a breeze.

I'd be surprised if they didn't have spare air, or other methods of launching the reloads quickly, when needed.

Extra weight could adversely affect handing, and is a "bomb" waiting to explode…

The torpedoes are carried right up along the side, almost as if they were armor. It seems like they'd be certain to be hit in a firefight. I don't think they explode unless you hit the detonator, but almost any hit would render them inoperable.

Maybe, as you suggest, they were carried when the E-boat was hunting shipping and left at home when the E-boat was escorting shipping. I know I would want to leave the reloads at home. Funny, when I look at all the images google can round up the reloads are always present in drawings, renders, and models, but they are *not* present in any actual photographs. Of course, photographs aren't taken during combat but during the day, quayside, etc. Still, no photos with the reloads…

As for air I'm sure the engines could generate the compressed air, but that would take some amount of time. Like everything else here, that could be two minutes and it could be twenty. You have the horsepower, but how big is the compressor?

Somebody's got to do some research…

I would think they'd have spare tanks of air to permit immediate relaunch, if needed, but that's just my supposition, based on nothing.

Just checked my Osprey's. They state all S-boats carried 2 torpedoes to reload and these could be reloaded quickly. For what that is worth.
Fitz, I am personally inclined to go with you at 3 turns. I stated 2 turns is reasonable because I think it is. To me 3 turns at slow speed would keep boats out of the action long enough to be a significant hindrance. You certainly would not be re loading in the midst of a firefight. Historically, you would fire; run away and try to sneak up again if there was enough night left for you to get back to port afterwards. YMMV.

Joe

From what I can see of the diagrams of German S boats (et al) in Fock's book "Fast Fighting Boats", spare torpedoes (where carried) were stowed behind and in direct axial line with the torpedo tube. I'm <guessing> that the spare torpedo was either slid or moved on rollers right into the tube.

Good book BTW for coastal warfare gamers. LOTS of armament info, speed/performance info, rare model info.

FWIW.

B

I agree with Joe Legan's points above (but, I usually do agree with pretty much everything he offers as his suggestions are well considered). I think two or three turns away from the action is reasonable for reloading. From a game standpoint the configuration of the S-Boat with tubes and reloads somewhat balances their heavy punch. Yes, they are sturdy and well armed but in order to use their second round of torpedoes they suffer a limitation which the player must address.

Blut
You are correct and the model shows it well. As Fitz states the additional turn helps create the historical tactic and balances the game. That said I havent tried it and 2 turns might be fine

Depending on how much "unknown" you want to put in to it, you can say something like, at the end of turn two roll a d6, and on a 4,5, or 6 the tube is reloaded. If you were not successful, the tube will automatically be considered to be reloaded at the end of turn 3.

"Book" time for reloads was 45 seconds, in practice 5 minutes with the boat stopped or slow ahead and pretty much the whole crew assisting was more regular in calm conditions, in any kind of seaway then wasily an hour. And it was only conducted away from the action as the boat was unable to manoeuvre and was severely limited in its ability to defend itself. Many boat COs declined to embark them as they were often more trouble than they were worth – especially if damaged

Finding out how long it takes a sub to reload a tube might give some idea as to the time such an operation would take.

If you have hydraulics, it's ~5 minutes or so if everyone knows what they're doing and is minimally aware of safety issues. In practice, it was more like 12-15 minutes for a good crew to reload.

But that's on an Ohio-class.

I'm going to go with Mister Manley on this one. The last thing you want is an unsecured torpedo. If you're lucky it rolls overboard without rolling over anyone and killing them.

Not that a torpedo was likely to detonate if struck by gunfire. TNT is inert to that level of shock. The compressed air bottles, however, would shatter like an artillery shell.

Speaking of torpedo reloads, what about Destroyer reloads? This seems to mainly concern the Japanese and their excellent Long Lances. Does anyone know how long it would take for the crews to reload torpedoes on a destroyer? With greater stability and more crew and a tactical doctrine of making the most of their potent weapons it would seem reloading would be viable during a battle.

Two or three turns at slow speed and out of combat seems reasonable. Although from the games I've played, if you allow a couple of turns at least to fire the first set of torpedoes, then withdraw and reload and try to get back into the fight, the game will probably be long over before you can. Unless the scenario calls for a long engagement with torpedoes it's probably more effective to just stay engaged with your guns. :)

Scott,
Agreed but that is what I would be going for with the 3 turn slow spped no maneuvering rule. It gives the player another option that was available historically. Odds are you won't take it except in specific circumstances. [ Like when visibility is 800 yards.]

Joe