"Regimental and Brigade II Fire and Fury" Topic

OK, I asked this over on the FandF forum but no replies. I sometimes forget that criticizing Fire and Fury on the F and F forum is kind of like loudly farting in church. So, let me ask this here:

The one aspect of RF&F (as well as BF&F) that I have never been able to cotton to is Charge Resolution with a 1D10. I don't think I am alone in this, at least what I hear in talking with other Civil War gamers (as well as reading here on TMP). The 1D10 throws can lead to absolutely ridiculous results (and often do). OK, maybe not ridiculous but certainly unexpected. Now, here is my question – has anyone considered used 2D6 opposed die throws rather than a 1D10? That provides a much better bell curve than the statistically unreliable 1D10.

Why do you need a bell curve? I think the 'wild' swings are pretty reflective of the period. I like the chaos of not being able to play the averages (though I do try to get every benefit I can).

I think a bell curve is more 'game' rather than less. But what do I know, I've only been playing since it was published.

You are of course free to play with the 2d6 method (though you may find it more of a grinder)

What you describe would be accurate if each side rolled 1D10 and used the result as their action. But the procedure calls for subtracting the defender's modified die roll from the attacker's modified die roll. This creates a quasi-bell curve the same as adding two dice. To prove it to yourself take grid paper and make a ten by ten grid numbered 0-9 across and 0-9 down. Fill in each intersecting block of the grid with the difference between the horizontal number and the vertical number. Then tally each result. I guarantee that -1, 0, and +1 will occur more often than -9 and +9.

Where do you find these ridiculous results? On the charge effects table you gotta out score your opponent by more than 8 points for them to lose more than a stand.
If the Modifiers are equal that's impossible

Sorry I'm with Saber6 on this one.

+1 all the replies above.

The opposed die rolls together create a non-linear bell curve, and concentrate the results in the middle of the curve. The modifiers skew the center of the bell curve.

I too prefer bell curves, so I have experimented with converting RF&F to use 2d6 for movement and shooting for two different variants:

AWI
1860s Mexico

The 1860s Mexico chart was created for a silly "what if" project covering the US invasion to kick the French out of Mexico after the ACW, and it includes some extremely unlikely possibilities (like early introduction of the Chassepot and Mitrailleuse) and some embellishments with a "colonial gaming" flavor (e.g. commander personalities, mass formation, etc.), but the basic structure of the bell curve is visible. In both these variants I tried to keep the percentages of various outcomes close to the original rules, though I allowed some skewing of results in order to implement two core concepts:

1. Introduce a bell curve to the dicing;
   
2. Cement all results to easily memorized numerical thresholds, to minimize chart lookups.

Neither of these have been playtested enough, so don't blame me if using one of them provokes a fistfight on game night.

You'll notice I kept the one-die-per-player dice-off for close combat – as observed above, there's already a bell curve resulting from two dice being thrown. Note: I only switched to using a d6 for close combat because I didn't want to use multiple dice types in the game. The published RF&F chart using d10s would work just as well (or better).

- Ix

A little biased, since I had a hand in playtest the rules, but I'm with Sabre 6 and roundie on this. To me, it reflects the inherent chaos of that battle in the last hundred yeards.

But if you want to fiddle with it, go ahead and have fun. But remember that what the author calls "Thirbligs". As he has explained it, one change in a rule mechanic can lead to imbalance in another, etc., etc.

We've tried a D12 without any changes to the charts. The swings are wild. Veteran Rebs charging while Fresh & cold steel vs. Green Worn yankees. Rebs role a 1 + 4 modifiers, vs Yankees roll of 12, spent -2, green -2. Victory green Yanks. It does happen.

We tried using two d6's instead of a d10. The results were disappointing. Very few charges were decisive, mostly units shoving each other back and forth with few stands eliminated. Shooting wasn't much better. After a few games like this, we were all happy to go back to a d10.

acwpaintr – Thanks! That is the type of information I was hoping to get.

+1 acwpaintr. My experience as well.

acwpaintr said:

We tried using two d6's instead of a d10. The results were disappointing. Very few charges were decisive, mostly units shoving each other back and forth with few stands eliminated. Shooting wasn't much better. After a few games like this, we were all happy to go back to a d10.

If you just substitute 2d6 for 1d10 without any modifications to the numerical results or modifiers on the charts, this would be the expected result. You need to do some actual statistical analysis and adjust the numbers (scores, modifiers, etc.) to get the outcomes to occur with similar percentages (or more likely, your own "improved" percentages).

If you look at the 2d6-based charts I linked to above, you'll see that I changed all the result numbers and some of the modifiers. I mostly tried to keep the percentage outcomes about the same as the rules (excepting a little fudging for personal biases and period flavor), but the numbers on the charts are very, very different than on the standard RF&F QRS. This is what you should expect to see on a chart adjusted for a completely different statistical model.

Rev Zoom said:

acwpaintr – Thanks! That is the type of information I was hoping to get.

If the question you were asking in the OP was "can I just use 2d6 instead of 1d10", the answer is just flat "no". There's no way that would work out the same, or even work very well, as acwpainter demonstrated. Swapping from a flat distribution to a bell curve is a big can of worms; if you're going to open it, bring a fork and plate, you've got a long, filling meal ahead of you.

- Ix

Yellow Admiral – thanks! My gaming group is pretty satisfied with Fury & Fury in its incarnations except for one fellow who detests all D10 games. The rest of us are fine. Maybe I will try this ONCE and we'll see the results.
I do wish the original QRS had the detail yours does. Would make it a lot easier.

Again, thanks. And thanks for all the replies from everyone.

Yellow admiral – we actually tried doctoring the d6's keeping a similar bell curve and having the results fall between 1-10. Didn't mention it in my previous post because I didn't want to open this can of worms. The first die remained unchanged, the numbers on the other were changed to 0-1-2-2-3-4. This keeps the bell curve as close as with the standard dice. As I mentioned before, the results were disappointing and dull, not necessarily in that order.