"question on free belgian/dutch army tank units ww2" Topic

does any one have info on the following
the free belgian /dutch army tank/armor units
all i can find is that they used armored cars nothing on tanks ,was there any units equipped with tanks?

BELGIUM (no tanks)

By 1944, the Free Belgian forces in the United Kingdom numbered some 4,500 men. Belgian soldiers formed the 1st Belgian Infantry Brigade (which also included an artillery battery of soldiers from Luxembourg) more often known as the Brigade Piron after its commanding officer, Jean-Baptiste Piron. The Brigade Piron was involved in the Normandy Invasion and the battles in France and the Netherlands until liberation. According to Flames of War (Brigade Piron manual – OK not necessarily the most historically accurate source) Divisional Support was provided by the 13th/18th Hussars (Shermans) and the US (Tanks and Tank Destroyers) so probably no Belgian Tanks.

Belgians also served in British special forces units during the war, forming a troop of No.10 (Inter-Allied) Commando, which was involved in the Italian Campaign and the Landings on Walcheren.[78] The 5th Special Air Service (part of the ιlite SAS) was made up entirely of Belgians and was the first Allied unit to enter Belgium in September 1944.

400 Belgian pilots served in the Royal Air Force. Two all-Belgian fighter units, Nos. 349 and 350 Squadrons, served in the European theatre. No. 350 Squadron alone claimed 51 "kills" between its formation in November 1941 and the end of the war.[80] In total, 1,200 Belgians served in the RAF, mainly in British or Free Dutch squadrons.

Two corvettes and a group of minesweepers were also operated by the Belgians during the Battle of the Atlantic. By 1943, 350 Belgians were serving as sailors on these vessels.

NETHERLANDS (no tanks)

Prinses Irene Brigade – Order of battle (1944)

I Motorized Independent Infantry Company
II Motorized Independent Infantry Company
III Motorized Independent Infantry Company
Reconnaissance Company (Disbanded 31 March 1945)
One Artillery Battery (six 25 pounders)
Brigade Signals
Brigade Maintenance

No Tanks

On 31 March 1945, three platoons of Marines left and formed II Independent Company and were sent to the USA to join the Royal Netherlands Marines Brigade, who had originally assigned these troops to the P.I.B. so the brigade would have enough troops participating in the liberation of Europe, as requested by the British government. The gap left by the Dutch Marines was filled with replacements from the volunteers from the liberated parts of the Netherlands, who had been trained at Bergen Op Zoom under the command of Frank Looringh van Beeck, a South African officer.

Mariniersbrigade

Starting in 1943, the United States Marine Corps trained and equipped a new brigade, the Mariniersbrigade, of the Korps Mariniers at Camp Lejeune and Camp Davis in North Carolina in preparation for amphibious landings against the Japanese in the Dutch East Indies. The Japanese surrendered before such landings were needed, but the Mariniersbrigade, fully trained and equipped, left North Carolina in six transports in 1945 and fought against the Indonesians in their National Revolution for independence. It was part of the A Division, which was itself commanded by a Korps Mariniers officer. It was disbanded in 1949.

History of the Piron Brigade 1940 – 1945

link

Very interesting ! I knew they served but not with this much detail.

Their status is an interesting discussion. In both cases they were serving a government in exile and, in the Dutch case, also a monarchy that fled to England (as with Norway). So they could fight on legit.

Trickier was the Free French position. Their home government stayed on at home, signed an armistice and hoped to see POWS repatriated, as their war was "over".

Trickiest of the lot was the position of German nationals, serving in the French Foreign Legion, who might have been captured by the Germans or Italians in North Africa!

Great responses from FPR above. Thanks!

Didn't the Germans put all their Nationals in the FFL into a Bn sized unit and it became part of the DAK ? A Bn of the 361st Inf Rgt ?

Yes here it is, part of the German 90th Light Inf Div. of the DAK.
link

Legion 4, the Vichy/captured FFL German Nationals yes, the Free FFL German Nationals no.

It should be noted a lot of Germans serving with the Legion in North Africa (Syria/lebanon, Tunisia, Algeria & Morocco) were not handed back to the Wehrmacht after the armistice and remained in the Legion.

At risk of highjacking this forum…how interesting to read of their status in the Foreign Legion, whether Vichy or Free French.

I only had two ideas in my head.

One that many were former Republican fighters from Spain and not too popular with the new French Vichy regime, or even less with the Germans.

Equally (a legend maybe) that Rommel captured some Free French at Bir Hacheim and disobeyed standing orders that they were to be shot out of hand.

I suspect any Anglo American nationals who donned enemy uniform might have met a frosty reception on capture. I do know a very few British did so but I think avoided the rope.

Many Republican Spanish were interned/Imprisoned by the French after fleeing Spain in `39. When the Germans invaded some were offered amnesty to join either labour units or the Legion – lots did as the camps were awful :(

Some fought for the French right through the war – North Africa and later NWE – the famous – La Nueve (the 9th) company of 2Dble`s Regiment de Marche du Chad was made up of quite a few former Republican Spanish.

I`ve NOT read any German orders about shooting Legionnaires (there were ones about commandos).

Certainly some American volksdeutch returned to the fatherland and joined up before the US joined the war (some served in intelligence, some fought as regular Soldarten) some served with Brigade 150 in the Ardennes.

The few British I`ve read about who actually signed up were either dyed in the wool fascists who later were tried for being traitors (eg Lord haw-haw) OR lazy/poor/low IQ former prisoners who did so to get better treatment – most of these were let off after the truth came out in de-brief after the war.

Their status is an interesting discussion. In both cases they were serving a government in exile and, in the Dutch case, also a monarchy that fled to England (as with Norway). So they could fight on legit.

Actually, no. The Dutch monarch and government fled to the U.K. in 1940, and operated as a true government in exile. However, the King of the Belgians surrendered (on his own behalf and on behalf of the army as a whole) and went into captivity under the Germans (he had long been suspected of harboring pro-German sentiments, and he was forced to abdicate after the end of the war because of this). Hubert Pierlot, Paul-Henri Spaak and a number of other ministers from the pre-war government set up a government in exile in France, and ultimately in London, but their legitimacy was uncertain. Technically, Belgian soldiers who disobeyed the king's command to surrender and continued to fight were in breach of Belgian military law.

Two very interesting responses. Again I do hope I am not hijacking this forum, but, over a few beers, this is how a conversation evolves.

I have long wondered about one country's terrorists and the other's freedom fighters.

Germans fighting for the Allies obviously had a problem if captured. I am sure there were such.

Jewish POWs of any Western country's army, in German hands, were surprisingly more likely to survive so long as they retained their POW status.

Czechs and Danes, in Allied uniforms, must have been on dodgy ground if captured, but seem to have been spared even if technically from a country not at war with the Axis. Poland, Norway, Netherlands, Greece, Yugoslavia could all boast a legit govt in exile. A surrender is not an armistice, still less a peace treaty.

The Belgians? I must say I speak in total ignorance of anything after an event over 200 years ago today. But I thought the whole problem for the king was the govt did move over the Channel to preserve a free state in exile. The poor king thought he was serving his country by staying behind and overseeing a local surrender. A local cease fire and gents walking out with hands raised is not the end of a nation fighting on. They did give him hard time when the shooting stopped I do know.

But international law is very dodgy on such. As for those who fight on but do not wear a uniform…..every nation would have executed you in time of war, on either side.

I still wonder how we could legally justify executing German spies. They were simply gathering intelligence, rarely intending sabotage, killing no-one directly, nationals of an enemy country and usually captured within minutes of arrival.

There's an inkling of the friction between Leopold III and his ministers here: link and here: link

There are, of course, many aspects of the story. Belgium had been an ally of France until October 1936, when Leopold proclaimed Belgium's neutrality. There is a school of thought that Leopold supported Belgium's abandonment of its alliance with France, and that support helped lay the foundation for claims that Leopold was sympathetic to Germany. It is clear that Leopold's surrender, and refusal to help establish a government in exile was opposed by his own ministers. So, the story is much more complicated than simply that Leopold had decided to stay behind, and that he was pilloried after the war.

Jewish POWs of any Western country's army, in German hands, were surprisingly more likely to survive so long as they retained their POW status

You may want to check this out on Berga:

link

Legion 4, the Vichy/captured FFL German Nationals yes, the Free FFL German Nationals no.

From that link I posted:

The 361st Regiment contained 300 Germans who had priorly served in the French Foreign Legion; who were usually considered unworthy of service but brought about by the Wehrmacht's incessant need for additional troops.[2][3] ,

It should be noted a lot of Germans serving with the Legion in North Africa (Syria/lebanon, Tunisia, Algeria & Morocco) were not handed back to the Wehrmacht after the armistice and remained in the Legion.

That is the way I understood it. Also when the UK forces invaded Vichy Syria & Lebanon in '41. Free FFL fought Vichy FFL. IIRC once the shooting was over, the Free FFL allowed those Vichy FFL to join them.

Many Republican Spanish were interned/Imprisoned by the French after fleeing Spain in `39. When the Germans invaded some were offered amnesty to join either labour units or the Legion – lots did as the camps were awful :(
Some fought for the French right through the war – North Africa and later NWE – the famous – La Nueve (the 9th) company of 2Dble`s Regiment de Marche du Chad was made up of quite a few former Republican Spanish.

That is very interesting. Did not know that. Of course the FFL was always a mix of nationalities from many countries. Many of which that had political and civil unrest, coupes, overthrows, etc.

Legion 4 wrote – "That is the way I understood it. Also when the UK forces invaded Vichy Syria & Lebanon in '41. Free FFL fought Vichy FFL. IIRC once the shooting was over, the Free FFL allowed those Vichy FFL to join them"

Again not 100% accurate, The Free French (and British) hoped once the fighting was over, the Vichy troops would change sides – this did NOT happen, most elected to either return to France or other French colonies (many Senegalese, Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians simply
wanted to go home). The Legionnaires were separated from their own officers and NCOs and an attempt was made to pressure them into joining their now Free French colleagues – most simply refused and followed their officers back to Algeria. Only about 2,000 (a mix of units) signed up and joined De Gaulle – don`t forget the Vichy government WAS the legitimate French government, Syria/Lebanon was attacked by the Allies; so the Vichy troops had nothing to apologise for in defending their territory from the British.

Good to know ! Thanks !

I continue to be fascinated by what I have read here and the whole question of national loyalty and "international laW".

The story of mistreatment of US Army Jewish POWS astonished me. I guess what I meant was that, if you were a French, Dutch, Belgian POW in German hands and happened to be Jewish, you were far more likely to survive and benefit from the Geneva Convention. The snag is that any that were released lost that protection and faced genocide.

I simply took it totally for granted that US or Commonwealth Jewish POWS were treated the same as their fellows.

Equally, it often puzzles me that so many POWs in Colditz were Polish Army officers. By definition, they were the trouble makers, how did they survive that long?

Must again apologise for hijacking the thread, but some great info has resulted.

The National Guard Militia Museum of NJ in Lawrenceville, NJ, has a Dutch tank, or what I would call a light tank, in the outside display.

Here's an excerpt from my AAR (After Action Report) that included a visit to the museum:

Outside

The Armory displays a few tanks and artillery pieces. A WWII Priest self-propelled howitzer is out front by the road, but the others are next to the parking lot. Most are modern vehicles like a M48 and M60, but it also has a CTMS Light Tank built by Marmon Herrington Co. for use in Netherlands East Indies in WWII.

According to Wikipedia, 628 CTMS tanks were ordered by the Royal Netherlands East Indies Army. Of these, a small number (about 25) were delivered to Java, just in time to see combat in the Dutch East Indies campaign following the Japanese invasion in early 1942. Of the big order, 149 were diverted to Australia where they were used for training. Then some 600 CTLS-4TACs and 4TAYs were delivered to China under Lend-Lease after Pearl Harbor. These had machine guns only.

The model on display may be the CTMS-1TB1, equipped with a 37mm gun (as the sign indicated). This project was started in 1941 to produce a three-man light tank for the Dutch Army. This particular version was armed with a 37mm automatic cannon and coaxial M1919 machine gun. The campaign ended too early for prototypes to be sent.

The project was then taken over by the Ordnance Department and was tested at Aberdeen Proving Grounds in early 1943. Other, more robust light tanks were being produced at the time, and there was no need for stop-gap solutions so the prototypes were rejected for US use in May 1943. Somehow, one of them ended up in NJ.

I simply took it totally for granted that US or Commonwealth Jewish POWS were treated the same as their fellows.

Sadly no … even US POWs that looked Jewish were abused by the Germans. Saw a documentary about that on NATGEO. But generally overall e.g. US/UK, etc., POWs in Nazi hands had 1-28 chance of dying. With Russian deaths being very large vs. the Western Allies, IIRC …

Now the IJFs' treated all POWs very poorly. Allied POWs in IJ hand's had a 1-4 chance of death.
Those stats seem to be pretty accurate from what I have read. But they may have been recently updated.

WWII Dutch AFVs : (from Wikipedia)

Tanks :

Marmon-Herrington CTLS – few used against Japanese on Java. link

Carden-Lloyd M1934 – 24 delivered to the KNIL.

M3 tanks – 50 were being transported when the Dutch east indies fell.

Armored cars :

L181 (M-36)
1936
12 – total*
37mm Bofors cannon and 3x7.92mm Lewis machine gun

L180 (M-38)
1938
14*
37mm Bofors cannon and 3xt.92mm Lewis machine gun

M39 Pantserwagen
1939
12*
37mm Bofors cannon and 3x7.92mm Lewis machine gun

Morris CS9
1936
3*
13.97mm Boys anti-tank rifle and 7.7 mm Bren light machine gun

Alvis Strausser AC3D
1938
12*
a 12.7 mm Colt-Browning MG in the turret and a 6.5 mm watercooled Vickers on the left of the driver

M3A1 Scout Car
1941
40*
two .30-caliber and one .50-caliber machine gun.