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"4th Polish Regiment in Spain" Topic


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©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
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AFPU4416 Jun 2019 1:54 a.m. PST

Hi

I am creating the 2nd Division of Sebastiani's Corps that comprised 2 battalions of 4th Polish Regiment under the wonderfully titled General de Brigade of Jean-Baptiste Cyrus de Valence.

Haythornthwaite notes the collars, cuffs and turnbacks were red with yellow lapels. However, my query is as to whether the Voltigeurs collars were red or yellow as I have seen some illustrations of Votligeurs with red collars?

Garde de Paris16 Jun 2019 2:40 a.m. PST

Gerry Embleton illustrates a voltigeur of the 4th in his "military dress of he peninsular war" book as with a…

WHITE COLLAR EDGED RED, TOP AND FRONT!

Mine are in storage, but I recall doing them yellow.

He shows res cuffs with white flap, edged red; red Polish turnbacka; and yellow lapels edged red all around – short fronted, not unlike Wurttemberg troops.

Green epaulettes with red crescent.

Polish shako, edged yellow on top. White cords. I think I see a purple (!) ball pompom with green plume, topped 1/3 yellow.

GdeP

Personal logo Artilleryman Supporting Member of TMP16 Jun 2019 3:02 a.m. PST

I have seen the red details for the 4th Regiment (I am assuming of the Vistula Legion) but only once. My information on the 4th Regiment (Knotel, Rospond, Dempsey and Nadwislanska) report that they had blue collars piped yellow, blue pointed cuffs piped yellow and yellow turnbacks. Epaulettes varied from company to company in the standard French manner (though white for grenadiers) but the collars were the same for all companies.

Personal logo Florida Tory Supporting Member of TMP16 Jun 2019 4:57 a.m. PST

Per Oman (Vol. 2), Valaence's division comprised the 4th, 7th and 9th "Polish" (i.e., Duchy of Warsaw) regiments.

The Vistula Legion comprised 4 infantry regiments and 2 lancer regiments in the French army which were recruited from Polish and (later) nationals.

Rick

AFPU4416 Jun 2019 5:18 a.m. PST

Florida Tory that's right:
3rd Division: General de division Valence
lst Brigade: General de brigade Vonderweidt
4th Polish Line Infantry Regiment (25/850)
7th Polish Line Infantry Regiment (52/l,750)
2nd Brigade: General de brigade Schramm
9th Polish Line Infantry Regiment (56/l,630)
Artillery (8/250).

From Haythornthwaite and JJ Wargames blog my understanding was that the the 4th regiment (part of the 1st Division) of the Duchy of Warsaw had red collar cuffs and turnbacks with yellow lapels or is that not correct?

The Front Rank Duchy of Warsaw figures show red collar etc and for the Voltigeurs a yellow collar edged red, so as I say I am not sure what is correct for the Voltigeurs.

Personal logo Artilleryman Supporting Member of TMP16 Jun 2019 6:02 a.m. PST

I see that we are actually talking about the Army of the Grand Duchy of Warsaw and not the Vistula Legion. I retire.

Aethelflaeda was framed16 Jun 2019 8:12 a.m. PST

pivka has a plate of a 4th regiment volteguer sgt. 1810-14 in Czapska with white and red cords, red collar and cuffs with a yellow band in the center. yellow piped red plastron on his kurtka. Green epauletts with red white fringe

AFPU4416 Jun 2019 1:03 p.m. PST

Many thanks. That answers my question on the collar colour.

Garde de Paris17 Jun 2019 6:29 a.m. PST

In the Pixka plate, I wonder if the fringes are actually silver and green – senior sergeant designation – and perhaps the cords in silver as well. The red in the cords is most unusual, normally for grenadiers.

GdeP

Prince of Essling18 Jun 2019 1:31 p.m. PST

However pages 34 & 35 of Nafziger & Wesolowski "Poles and Saxons of the Napoleonic Wars" says "Antoni Bialkowski states in his memoirs that the 4th (Posen) Infantry regiment was equipped with dark blue czapkas with gold trimming, a tricolour cockade, and six inch tall pompons (gold for fusiliers, poppy red for grenadiers, green for voltigeurs), dark blue kurtkas with yellow facings and cuffs, dark blue pants with yellow side stripes, white sleeved vests with dark blue collars and shoulder straps, short black gaiters with eight buttons, and gray overcoats with yellow collars and shoulder straps."

But on 2 March 1807 the uniform was modified yellow cuffs & lapels, poppy red collar & yellow buttons. The 4th regiment wore its 1807 Divisional dress until 1813.

Boisselier has the Grenadier with a yellow collar:

picture

Modern day reenactors:

picture

4 Pułk Piechoty (Księstwo Warszawskie) has a schematic for
fusilier, grenadier & voltigeur and sapper, drummer & capitain.

Prince of Essling20 Jun 2019 1:07 a.m. PST

Karol Linder's "Dawne Wojsko Polskie Ubior I Uzbrojenie" published by Wydawnictwo Ministerstwa Obrony Narodowej shows a grenadier in 1812 with a French grenadier shako, red collar edged blue, yellow lapels, red cuffs blue button area edged yellow, brass buttons. Unfortunately the turnbacks are not shown clearly but appears to be blue edged yellow?

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