"Blitzkrieg Commander - Has anyone played using 15mm?" Topic

I recently saw this in my local game store (expensive – but very comprehensive). I also recently saw a long thread where people were comparing to Kampfgruppe Commander II. I am curious if anyone has played using 15mm minis that are based for FoW? Did you enjoy the rules? I might consider buying them as an alternative to FoW.

Have you tried the lite version???

It is available from the website

link

We are looking to try it out with 15mm

MH
:-)

I am curious if anyone has played using 15mm minis that are based for FoW?

That is exactly how I play the game. It works fine.

Did you enjoy the rules?

The rules are in my top 3 of all time. The games are longer than FoW but more realistic IMO. Here is my breakdown:

Best rules when time is not a concern: Rapid Fire

Best rules when you want to have fun and be done in 2 hours: FoW

Best compromise of the two: Blitzkreig Commander.

Yes, FOW based troops work fine with BKC, and yes, BKC is a nice set of WW2 rules.

Not yet, but I certainly intend to. No reason at all it shouldn't work.

Hi I use Fow minis with the Rapid fire ruleset and they look very good in rapid fire size units. I just base up a few figs in 2's and 3's and singularly, for casualty breakdowns. I have read BCK Lite and the rules look pretty good.Must give it a go.

Not yet, but this is my intention as well.

Also, I don't understand your comment about them being expensive. I ordered my copy from an online retailer for $38. USD For that you get everything. Everything. There are no supplements. This isn't a rule set with a "core" set of stats for three or four nations, maybe for one front, for a few years of that front, and then you must buy another volume (or two, or three or four…) to get the full stats for other nations, fronts and years. It's a single 120 page book, with about 40 pages of rules and 80 pages of all the TOEs you need for 18 nations, 15 theaters/time periods of the war.

I love the look of FOW so I have purchased that set as well. The main rules were $40, the supplements run between $20 USD and $25 USD I believe (and there are now seven or eight, and counting). So that's $200 USD and counting.

And my research has turned up:
Battlefront is $33 USD plus four more supplements at nearly $80 USD to get everything
Command Decision III is $35 USD plus at least one supplement for another $30 USD
Mein Panzer is $30 USD plus two supplements for another $70 USD
Rapid Fire is $40 USD plus a jumble of supplements (I can't determine which are for v1 of their rules, and which might be for v2)
Spearhead are $25, plus another $60 USD for three supplements

And I'm not talking scenario packs, when I say supplements I mean they contain the TOEs needed to play the nations included for those theaters or time periods. The core rules do not cover everything.

I consider $40 USD or so to be a reasonable price for a single volume that includes everything.

What is the CD III supplement?

More power to FOW. I don't play it, but it has recharged WW2 gaming in the last two years (the likes of which I haven't seen since Squad Leader in the '70s), and will motivate my beloved Peter Pig, Skytrex & Quality Casting to keep giving me more beautiful models.

I agree Mr GK . . . FOW has done wonders for the genre, and to show my support I've picked up every one of the books and will start in on their minis shortly – even though I intend to play BlitzkriegCommander as my "main" rules.

As for CD supplements, check out warweb dot com. Select rules, then choose CD III. You will see one supplement clearly identified for CD III called US Forces in North Africa for $12. USD There is another supplement titled Armies of the Second World War for $30 USD but it states it's for CD II not the newer version, so I'm not counting that one.

However, if the US forces for Africa were not part of the initial rule set, I have to wonder what else is "missing". The write-up for the rules state they come with "18 pages listing hundreds of the vehicles and weapons of France, Germany Italy Japan, Poland, The United Kingdom, USA, and USSR rated in game terms. " I don't know if you can include everything needed to fight any year, any theater, in only 18 pages.

I also know there was a magazine of some sort that included new scenarios and rules on a routine basis, because a pile of them are also available from that same site for $10 USD a pop. Don't know if those were for the older II edition or the newer III edition though.

This is not a slam of Command Decision by the way. In my research of available platoon/company level rules, I compiled a bit of info on a number of rule sets, and I tracked things like where can you buy them, do they have their own website still supporting them, and if they make any supplements or follow-on products, what do they cover and how much are they. Even culled through back posts on TMP to see what other people thought about them.

So I was simply responding to the comment that someone thought the $40 USD (or so) price tag for BKC was excessive. For that price, you get 120 pages of "everything", beautifully laid out I might add, complete with full color photos of examples of play.

We have played BKC in 15mm based for FoW. The rules can be used with every scale, we will even try 28mm next time for a small battle.

But BKC has a different feeling to FoW. FoW are more tactical rules, very focused on weapon and armour values. They are made after GWs 40k.

BKC is on a higher level (a stand is a platoon – you can play 1 to 1, but i dont think it fits) and more focused on C&C and battlefield decisions.

15mm in BKC works, but you'll want a large playing area. I've been using a 4x4 (120cm x 120cm) space and it gets a bit cramped. The game is probably best suited to 10/12mm, but 15mm works just fine, provided you have the space.

SeattleGamer,

As to "Mein Panzer is $30 USD USD plus two supplements for another $70 USD USD"

This is not a true statement. Let me clarify this for you. Mein Panzer Core Rules is $29.95 USD and the WW2 Databook is $34.95 USD a total of $64.90. This is all that is need to play any WW2 game. Note also that the WW2 Databook includes huge amounts of equipment (tanks, aircraft, ships, amphibious vessels and small arms) stats (well over 10,000 entries) and TO&E for 31 countries in print and another 6 minor countries as a free download from the website. Also, once you buy the book you never have to buy it again. Errata corrections, updates and revisions are free to download from the site and put into your book. If any of the books are totally redone it will be available for download by any registered buyer. So I think that ODGW offers a very good value. Now we do offer Scenario Packs, Battlecards and the new Secret Weapons Supplement for WW2 but none of these are need to play. We also offer the Spanish Civil War Databook. The WW1 Databook is in the works as is a Modern Databook. Time frames on completion on these are not currently available.

Personally I have most of the rules mentioned by Seattle (well all of 'em actually)

The value is in the play I beleive. If you buy a game for $40 USD and never play was it worth the price?

If you buy a game that cost $200 USD but you and your mates play the game every weekend, is it worth the price?

Bonzai . . . Just to be clear, I certainly wasn't slamming Mein Panzer. I was merely comparing prices, based on what I had read to bring all of the rule sets up to parity.

By parity, that means "all" of the TOEs needed to play from the Spanish Civil War through the end of WWII. Since BKC includes 43 army lists for 18 nations, and includes the SCW, I had to include the second MP supplement for the Spanish Civil War to bring the complete Mein Panzer bundle up to the same level as BKC. That's where I got the nearly $100 USD price tag from. But if you ignore the SCW then yes, $65 USD would get you the pieces needed to play MP in WWII.

I think it's fantastic that ODGW offer free updates for life, and I liked the website and the extras that were available (the site is undergoing a major overhaul of some sort now, so almost nothing is available for me to double-check my info). I too think it's a good value. I wasn't arguing against any of those games, but wanted to counter the initial post by CC that BKC was "expensive". It is not.

In the end, Rex is correct. Buying a $40 USD ruleset you don't play isn't as good a value as the $200 USD set you buy and play all the time. I will say though that as research, it's nice to have a few sets to read so you can determine what really suits your own individual ease-of-play, historical accuracy, complexity and game length requirements. So to that end, sometimes that extra money on games not played is well spent.

I narrowed down my search and have picked up BKC, FOW and IABSM for platoon/company, and Disposable Heroes, Nuts and Ultra Simple Skirmish Rules for skirmish. If none of those work for me, I'll try some other sets. MP is on my list.

Steve

BKC may be a little to coarse for platoon company – I use it for regimental sized actions. IABSM is better at the company level and Face of Battle at the platoon or lower level.

I now understand, Steve. I didn't get the full gist of the included SCW. Our SCW Databook is like $19.95 USD and would bring the total to $84.85 USD I believe. Rex is very right too. Steve, thanks for the clarification and the kind words. Hopefully the website refurbishment will be done very soon and we can get back to business as usual. Steve, if you are ever at one of the HMGS East Cons (I know being in Seattle would make this an uncommon occurance ;)) look us up. If you have any questions about MP drop us a line at the discussion forum or at my email, bbenge@odgw.com

As a side note to ODGW products, I am currently working on the World War 1 Databook and have recently completed the WW2 Lite Databook (a very cut down WW2 databook with no ships, medium or heavy bombers, no amphibiuos ships, reduced small arms tables (full version of this is new add to the WW2 databook too), the myriad of the uncommon equipment table entries was eliminated (basically you get all the equipment you can readily buy minis for), and the countries were reduced to the big eight (France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Poland, Soviet Union, United Kingdom and United States). It will be teamed with all of the necesary WW2 rules to play MP at a cheaper price. This is to meet a demand for the more casual gamers that don't want all the extra equipment stats or countries but want the full flavor of WW2. Not sure of what the price will be but I do believe that it will be under $40 USD for a complete ready-to-play set of WW2 rules. Note that we have had this in the works for the past 5 or so months now. Release date will be by the end of the year, I hope.

Cool I cannot wait for the new website!

Just for anyone who will be in the Des Moines Area Nov. 30-Oct 2nd there will be a game convention at the Hotel Fort Des Moines.

I will be playing a Break out from Hubes pocket senerio with Flames of War on friday night, Blitzkreig Commander Saturday Morning and Mein Panzer Saturday Afternoon.

Perhaps with Battle front on Sunday. (Though I have never played these- does any one want to voulenteer – I have all the stuff)

This is just for people to play the diffrent rules and see how each plays.

No problem BB . . . looking forward to your site coming back online, and the new WWII "lite" version. I like the sound of "basically you get all the equipment you can readily buy minis for". :)

Not that I had anything against the full package.

I'll tell you truthfully, when I was narrowing down my list of candidates, the only strike against MP was something other folks would consider a bonus. Your rules were not dedicated to WWII but for armed conflict in the 20th century. Those other times and wars hold no interest for me, and I had visions of rules that either had to be broken down into periods (Infantry: WWI, Infantry: WWII, Infantry: Korea, etc) thus making it harder to find what I was looking for, or the rules would be generic enough to fit every period, and thus they would lose any period feel.

So, I blinked so to speak, and that placed MP on my list of "second wave reinforcements" should the first wave not measure up to my needs.

I'd say it not to be the case, though.

Basically it presents the rules that are common to all, such as a tank moving or firing but also includes other rules that would be seen in a modern environment, such as guided missles. Of course, even the guided missle rule could be used in WW2. Essentially the main difference is in the equipment lists, not the rules, but then aside from the equipment involved how different is one tank shooting at another tank today versus 50 years ago?

Missles are covered, as I said, but like helicopters, aircraft, ship bombardments, etc. were all seen in WW2. So the core rules are the same, only the equipment changes from one era to another.

Take infantry, for example. Aside from the different equipment (which is reflected on the appropriate sheets), how different is a 1944 GI and a 2004 GI? Especially in game terms? There may be differences in troop quality, but these are based on the same numerical scale. There are differences in equipment, but these are reflected in the different equipment tables – tables that the same categories. When you get down to it, the only differences between WW2 warfare are equipment and doctrine. The first is easily handled in the game and the second can be dealt with to a degree by the rules, but it's ulitmately up to a given player, not the game to decide how much stock to place in the doctrine.

I think with MP, I can put on not only flavorful games of WW2, Korea, or Modern, but I use them to do so with different types of WW2. For example, Russian snow, Marines storming a Japanese island, Normandy, a parachute drop to take Pegasus Bridge, breaking through the bocage, Market Garden, the Fall of France, El Alamein, and so forth.

And that's without getting into some of the specific supplements. I could have a fun "what if" game set in 1946, where Panther IIs and SturmMaus take on American T-95s, supported by Pfeil fighters.

I'm not trying to suggest that other games can't give you this experience – far from it. I personally am chomping at the bit to try out BKC, but I don't view things as "one rules to rule them all", rather that the good game systems will each give you a different perspective and/or experience. So if I like BKC, I'll add it to my holster of WW2 games, along with MP. And then I'll add BKC Moder to my wish list.

I'm merely trying to fill in some of the admitted gaps you have concerning MP because I'd hate to think that someone else would take them at face value, rather from hearing from someone who has played and enjoyed them.

Thanks enrious, your comments help.

To pick up on a few of your comments. First, I agree that there is not one ruleset to rule them all. Different sets have different approaches. I'm looking forward to playing some FOW games where command and control are not a factor. I'm also looking forward to games of BKC where command and control are present. I like IGOUGO games, and I like the entire idea of using cards to randomly activate units and can't wait to give IABSM a try.

What doesn't change is my desire for a certain level of complexity and a certain speed of play. Gone are the days when I have 4-5 hours to play anything, let alone an all-day affair. So something that plays in 2-3 hours is one of the goals.

I was never interested in Squad Leader (bought it, tried it, didn't like it at all), and when ASL came out I knew that was far, far more than I ever cared to learn. SO I don't ewant to know angles of attack and armor thickness in millimeters. If a designer can boil all that down to a couple of defense ratings I'm happy. So another one of my goals is easy to moderate complexity.

I'm glad you explained a bit about Mein Panzer. It triggered my searching the database for older articles, and found one that explained that while the first edition infantry rules were more tacked on and less useful, the next edition was more balanced. That helps, because for me, WWII was all about the ground-pounders taking ground and holding it, with artillery backing them up. And oh yeah, there were these things called tanks that played some small role. :)

So again, thanks for the comments. When MP's site comes back up, I'll be heading there!

gaming in 5mm :

We have played BKC VERY often,, hundreds of games with well over a dozen players. BKC is lots of funa and a good system that brings the fustraion of being in command.

I have bough IABSM and , havent palyed it yet, although it looks great! playing two systems and the players ( as well as myself) get mixed up

Mike

All updates for Blitzkrieg Commander from 2nd printing/edition are on the webside for free to download.

We have played it in 15mm and it works – like RF though it becomes harder to see it as anything but a 1:1 game which then makes the mechanics seem odd. What I mean is the beauty of it lies in the command and control difficulties at that Brigade/Division level – if looking at it as a company level game it then doesn't quite work (but I know Pete didn't aim at this).

can't compare it to FOW IMHO as the level of the games are set quite differently. BUT it is a far superior game to its the other major set (for the same level of play) rapid fire. If for no other reason than it does have command and control and morale rules which are important at the operational level it is set at. RF has non which is a nonsense for a set of rules aimed at that operating level! Then if you look at RF as a company level 1:1 game that most people admit they do when playing it is then just a simple set of rules (nothing wrong with that mind you) with no bite.

Rich J

Actually you might want to look at Rapid Fire second edition Rich. Rapid Fire always had morale rules and they are even more extensive in the latest version. The optional command and control rules are still optional but have been expanded as well.

Just a clarification . . . BlitzkriegCommander is in it's second printing – not second edition. Pete sold out of all his first printing and made some minor corrections before printing it again. All of the changes are available for download for free (as was pointed out) from his website.

Marc … have played second edition RF and should have been mre specific . RF has morale rules to speak of … would have been a better way of putting it. The command and control are lacking too even in the optional state they hardly effect the troops on the table which tend to do exactly what you want when you want them to. There is none of the plans falling down because of the FoW etc.

Again I know loads of people play and love the rules and I'll not knock a game back with the 2nd edition … but if you want the flavour of commanding a big force they do not cut the mustard at all – BKC will give you a FAR superior game. If you want a no fills predictable game that gets a lot on the table but say what you will still looks like you are playing a 1:1 game (and there is little argument against this when the rules state that the x number of men, is it 8, is a company, and that house is a village, but you can still move up to it and have some of the men throw grenades the equivalent of xxx yards … mmmmthen) RF may do – although personally I'd play Flames.

RJ

Rich;

Fair enough, we each have our own preferences and yours are fairly and accurately stated. For me, for example, I have yet to find a set of Command and Control rules to match those in the original Clash of Armor games.

Some rules do better at different scales (meaning skirmish, battalion level, division level, NOT figure scale) then others. And within those sub types some folks will always prefer a certain set of rules over another. It also matters if you are looking for a quick play game or one more involved.

Some rules stress certain aspects more than others. Certain rules sets, for example, might focus or center on morale as a key element while another set focuses on firepower. Depending on ones preferences then a certain set may meet those needs better for an individual then another.

In the end we usually do best letting folks know what about a specific set of rules we like and why we play them. Too many folks seem bent on bad mouthing a certain set of rules just because they dont like them.

Marc – All true :-)
Wasn't meaning to bad mouth RF as such. Only wanted to point out that BKC may be more for the guys taste if they want certain aspects. I'd noticed he had said BKC as an alternative to FOW and I don't think they are an alternative as they are way different – we play both with the bases from FOW and enjoy both depending on the 'feel' we want, plus the amount of time etc – just as we will play IABSM, DH or OOverlord – depending on the time and 'feel' requirements.
However RF are touted as an alternative for BKC (or the other way round) as they are both made for the supposed operational level – and all else even BKC must be seen as being far closer to achieving the feel at this level. Neither are good at creating platoon to company level (as in what is on the table) where FOW, IABSM etc come in.

Hope I am making sense – so wasn't bad mouthing RF as such as I have had some good games with the set etc etc.

RJ

Rich;

Nope, didnt mean to imply you were bad mouthing RF or any other set and you were right to point out the differences.

For many rules just boil down to what works for them or feels right for them and in then end you cant argue with that.

Marc