"Looking for online information about the Danishmends." Topic

A BOOK! Runciman's 3 volume history of the crusades…

A BOOK! Runciman's 3 volume history of the crusades…

Seconded, also Claude Cahen's Pre-Ottoman Turkey provides a good, specific outline of the Danishmends.

Chthonic regards

B

Methinks I'm going to have a hard time with this topic. Thanks for the book reference, hopefully I'll be able to find a loanable copy at the Boston Public Library. I just needed some brief info so as to begin work on a second Medieval Total War Turkish faction.

How brief are we talking about?
Basically the Danishmends under Gumushtegin grew to dominate the Turkish states in Anataolia, especially after the death of the Seljuq Qilij Arslan in civil war.

The Danishmends cooperated with, and fought against, the Gabras family (who ruled Trebizond), and established garrisons as far afield as Ankara. They were subject to a major campaign by the Byzantine Emperor John Komnenos, who was unable to make permanent gains against them.

After the death of Gumushtegin (he who captured and killed Bohemond II, turning his skull into a drinking cup), their territories fell apart, with the next ruler Yaghi Basan having to rule over a more limited realm. After the revival of the Seljuq Sultanate of Rum under Qilij Arslan II, the Danishmends were reduced to being just another Turkmen emirate. Danishmend troops are still reported to be in action during the Mameluk-Il-Khanid war (as vassals of the Il-Khans).

*Names cites above subject to revision/corrected spelling, in the event my recall is not perfect…

Chthonic regards

B

I read through all this and then realised that it was not about Danish maids.

Umm, sorry,

Stephen

Runciman's 3 volumes on the Crusades comes with the vantage of the Crusader's is of very limited usefulness when trying to understand the Danishmend "kingdom". That is, we only hear about the Danishmends in a cursory way as they intersect with the political/military conditions of the Frankish states. This is especially true when the County of Edessa collapses and the one direct contact between the two sides is eliminated. The Byzantines also had limited direct contact with the Danishmends making any study of them difficult.

There really is a need for a indepth study of the Seljuk states of the Middle East at the time of Crusades. I'd love to learn more about the Seljuk's of Rum, the Danishmends, and the other Seljuk states that dominated the Middle East of the period.

Runciman's 3 volumes on the Crusades comes with the vantage of the Crusader's is of very limited usefulness when trying to understand the Danishmend "kingdom". That is, we only hear about the Danishmends in a cursory way as they intersect with the political/military conditions of the Frankish states.

I suspect that tracking Cahen's Pre-Ottoman Turkey may assist, as Cahen has a long publishing record in academic journals on Turks.

He utilises many Islamic 'standard histories' (ibn al-Athir, al-Kamil, ibn al-Qalanisi) as well as some Armenian/Gerorgian chronicles.

Chthonic regards

B

When I tried looking up Claude Cahen's name on bookfinder.com I got this. Looks interesting. "The Formation of Turkey: The Seljukid Sultanate of Rum Eleventh to Fourteenth Century". Not Danishmends but a step closer!

@ Marcus Brutus There really is a need for a indepth study of the Seljuk states of the Middle East at the time of Crusades. I'd love to learn more about the Seljuk's of Rum, the Danishmends, and the other Seljuk states that dominated the Middle East of the period.

Ibn al-Athir's general history of the period would seem to be ideal. Thee's also the odd academic paper floating around that could also be useful.

Cahen's 'The Formation of Turkey' should include a decent treatment of the Danishmends.

Chthonic regards

B

Regarding it's rulers: What I need to know is the age and name of the ruler(if Danishmend was no longer in charge) in the year 1087 – the beginning of the Early Era in MTW.

For a legendary figure, that could be quite a challenge. The original Danishmend is more like Arthur.

I also need to know the age and name(s) of the heir(s) to the state. Did the ruler have a brother and hence a potential rival to the throne? If so, what was his name and how old was he in 1087?

Almost all Turkish states had a succession conflict, as the rule was that soveriegnty passed to the most competent male (whether brother, uncle, nephew or son).

Regarding troops, I know that Seljuk and Danishmend forces were identical.

In Anatolia the general statement would be true, of the Seljuq states in the heartland of the Eastern Caliphate, there would be significant differences. The 'core' Seljuq armies were professional, well-led and much less dependent on Turkmens, than the armies in the 'periphery'.

Chthonic regards

B

Which raises an point of interest for me. What's the difference between Seljuks and Turcomens?

Which raises an point of interest for me. What's the difference between Seljuks and Turcomens?

Turkmen is a term attributed generically to the collection of Oghuz/Ghuzz tribes that entered the Middle East. Fwiw, the Arabic for Turk in this era was atrak.

Seljuqs were a specific Oghuz tribe. They had the advantage over the Ghaznavids, in that they were free-born- the Ghaznavids were descended from slave-soldiers (ghilman).

They were also politically astute- gathering a lot of support within the eastern Caliphate. They received for instance, the support of the Saffarid amirs in Sistan, and the Dailami Kakuyids in the Jibal. This expedited their takeover, the cities of Khurasan for instance, surrendered quickly to the Seljuqs.

If I may make a plug, I would point out that the Shattered Lances yahoo group link may be useful if you are interested in this period.

Chthonic regards

B

sorry, link is link

Chthonic regards

B

Finding anything about the Danishmends will be hard. As with dozens of post-Oghuz tribes that frgmented after Sanjar's death [Hamadan Seljuks, Kerman Seljuks, the millions of tiny Anatolia Turkmen empires, Iraqi Turkmens and others], it is very well that you consentrate on the biggest Turkmen empire at that time and build it according to that. There is very little English Information of any of these small empires.