"When did French infantry stop wearing bicornes?" Topic

The reason I ask is that the figures I have are for the campaign of 1809 (although later I want to diversify if possible). Most of my figures are OG 15mm and seeing this:

"We are happy to announce two new ranges of figures for the Old Glory 15mm Napoleonic line. The new ranges are Late Revolutionary French (1799-1803) and Early Imperial French (1805-1807)"

got me wondering if some units, either on the Danube or Italy would still have been wearing the old headgear. I found this from "Artilleryman"in a previous thread:

"The 1809 campaign was the first in which all the infantry finally wore shakos. Before that, I would put my French line infantry in bicornes. The only exceptions would be leger regiments and the regiments in the new white uniform of which there were only 12 (3, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 21,32, 33, 46 and 53) and they were back in blue after 1808" but it was addressing the question from the opposite end – shakos not replacing bicornes by 1806 rather than some bicornes still hanging around by 1809.

I don't want to get them on the implausible "well we're not sure so maybe" basis. I'd want to be reasonably sure that I was right to go with a few in the earlier style. Otherwise it'll have to wait until I start getting 1806 Prussians before I can justify French in bicornes.

Thanks,
John

When they went to sleep at night.

Sorry, that's all I've got on this one…

Hilarious :-)

On the perry french in bicorne packs they claim some French regimets still used the bicorne in 1809. But that's the only reference I've seen of it.

John

What makes you sure it's possible to state a specific date for this?

As I understand how this worked, when the pattern of any piece of equipment changed, all that happened was that new supplies thereafter were of the new pattern. Soldiers using the old-pattern uniform item would continue to do so until it wore out. Then they would be issued with a new item. The new item would be whatever the quartermaster had that fitted. This might well be a new, old-pattern item. Eventually all men would acquire the new item.

Very few or no armies were in a position to announce that the new uniform – with army-wide, immediate effect – will be a colpack, and therefore all shakoes including stocks and those issued yesterday are to be turned in and destroyed. The British army seems to have done this in the Peninsula with the heavy cavalry uniforms, Wellington commenting unfavourably on their new profile. But actually even there I am not so sure this was deliberate. A new pattern helmet is decreed, no further batches of the old are required, a production run of the new is completed, and this batch is then shipped to the regiment. With the regiment receiving stuff intermittently, it could have exhausted all its stocks of the old. It could be that by the time the new crested helmets arrived, all the bicornes already needed replacing.

We do know that these shakoes didn't last long. A couple of years I think. They were made of felt and cardboard so presumably they would dissolve pretty fast in rain. All armies had shako covers for a reason…

I am afraid that I am just reasoning myself into repeating the 'implausible' view you don't need repeating, which is that because the new pattern arrived at depots piecemeal, went out to the field piecemeal and was issued piecemeal until eventually everybody had one – we dunno.

The day before the shako was authorised nobody had one, and by 1812 there can't have been any bicornes left. To know for sure about 1809 I think you'd have to find contemporary images and see what actual artists observed.

Referring to my previous input, from all the modest research I have undertaken for my own 1809 French army which includes contemporary illustrations and accounts and an appreciation about the difficulties of supplying an army on campaign at the time, I am as certain as I can be that the shako was universal by 1809 in all theatres. Whereas I would not be surprised to see the odd bicorne on campaign in 1808, by the next year, given the sedentary nature of the Armies of Germany and Italy and the chance for units for the Spanish campaign to pass through their depots, I would not use bicorned figures on the Danube.

Just my opinion but I hope it helps.

I think some of the 3rd and 4th Regiments of Grenadiers and Chasseurs of the Imperial Guard were wearing them at Waterloo.

Rod

IMHO, I would agree with the idea that a change happened relatively gradually after official changes. The Austrian Army of the Napoleonic period did it that way, so why not the French and others. Some units might have stubbornly held on to their "traditional" headgear out of pride, etc. in some cases, also, although that is purely conjecture on my part.

I think some of the 3rd and 4th Regiments of Grenadiers and Chasseurs of the Imperial Guard were wearing them at Waterloo.

Rod,

Agree. The uniforming of some of the Guard was not complete when they marched north. Lutzow, who had taken a beating in 1813 with his Free Corps by Wurttemberg cavalry, commanded a regular cavalry regiment in 1815. He mistakenly identified one of these Guard units as either National Guard or some other hastily mustered unit, and charged their square and once again learned a very pointed lesson. I think he was captured and was surprised and somewhat shocked to find out that he had attacked an Old Guard unit.

Kevin

The shako became regulation for French line infantry in February 1806. Undoubtedly, it took time for the new regulation to take effect and for the new headgear to be manufactured and issued.

The light cavalry also adopted it the same year.

The light infantry regiments had adopted a shako some time before 1806, perhaps as early as 1802. Prior to that some regiments had worn the light cavalry mirliton.

I've seen stuff by a Peninsular French general very happy that he's finally gotten everyone in blue with shako, and I think it was about 1811 or 12. The further you are from headquarters, the longer old uniforms linger.

IN the case of the Old Guard, I believe Rousselot wrote that the Grenadiers and Chasseurs always kept their bicorns, worn until required to be present with bearskins.

GdeP

The Imperial Guard had their own uniform regulations and were not affected by what the line units did or didn't do regarding uniform regulations or the lack of them.

Certainly, for the Guard, the Bicorne was still the "casual" town dress up to the end of the Napoleonic Era. Tenue de Ville. See any Rousellot artwork of walking out dress. The fashion changed, with the front and even more the rear flaps far higher than ten years earlier.

But we all know what is being asked here. The PBI of the line regts, on campaign, in a battle…….

4th Cuirassier asked me, "What makes you sure it's possible to state a specific date for this?"

There must have been a misunderstanding here. I don't think there can be a specific date for this. I was wondering if the overlap between bicorne and shako would have stretched far enough to include the 1809 campaign against Austria, just as there is a transition in the Austrian infantry from helmet to shako that sees a small number of German regiments wearing shakos while the vast majority still have the helmet.

Thanks for the contribution. The description of the haphazard way that new items were issued fits with my preconception but it looks like 1809 might be too late to still see bicornes. Certainly that's what Artilleryman suggests from his research.

Perhaps I can get away with the odd figure in a 3rd or 4th battalion but that would be about it. Thanks all for your input.

John

The French Peninsular general who wrote about the end of bicornes was Marshal Suchet.

According to Phillip Haythornthwaite in the Osprey vol on Napoleon's Line Infantry- Suchet wrote of his command in November 1809- "the medley is over- there are no more hats, no more white coats." This correspondence is also quoted by Rene Chartrand in his book 'Napoleon's Army'

So November 1809 is a hard date for the last of the hats- but that refers only to one army in Spain.

Reference the above posts, could I then plausibly give my Peninsular French army a few bicornes in 1810 or would that be pushing it? Would make for some nice variation. I now live in Spain, I'm not sure what would have been the more practical headgear in this heat, and no way would I want to wear a bearskin, although my grenadiers do sport them!

Cheers,
Lee.

I think that most 1st btn units received the shako by the start of the 1807 campaign; it was considered pretty useless, and carefully channeled rainwater onto the wearers shoulders, to quote one source.
As Napoleon considered the Peninsular war as a sort of sideshow to his other main projects, he was less concerned about headgear (and more concerned with getting boots and greatcoats to Spain), so I wouldnt be surprised that some units, or individuals therein, would still be wearing a somewhat battered bicorne, replaced, when it finally wore out, by a bonnet de police. This is how Ive represented my btns in Spain: a motley of patched white, blue, and brown trousers, patched blue jackets and overcoats, and a mixture of mostly shakos, with the odd bicorne and bonnet de police here and there.
I can assure you that, visually, this looks graet as well as realistic, considering the punishment of massive heat, rain, and wind these garments had to bear.
Cheers, Don

Hi

" I was wondering if the overlap between bicorne and shako would have stretched far enough to include the 1809 campaign against Austria,.."

Most likely not as noted above by many. But many an officer and ADC should be so depicted.

The 'regulations' do not define a process, they simply codify what was happening most of the time (beforehand). This exists in service and corporate world today.

The shortcomings of the bicorne were recorded by many nations. The French simply repeats it.

Shakos a la light cavalry were adopted into the Infanterie Legere about 1800 by some units, probably in part only, but they are recorded and illustrated, for both infantry and light artillery. Both Ney and Murat at the Camp du Boulogne trialled shakos for infantry wear. They came out well and recommended them.

I have read, but dont find the reference, that Oudinots United Grenadier 1805 Division was also issued them to 'improve appearance' and stop dilapidated wear etc. That's the way I'm modelling them (dependent upon use of bearskins/ colpacks etc.).

The 'decree' of 1806 codified the ongoing transition of the change and defined the style/ format. It's implementation would have been progressive however. The pause in activity of the Grande Armee was brief in the overall time period and many units would have pursued the 1806 campaign in bicorne.

As cited the bicorne was also a second dress (undress) and tenue de route requirement- it never completely went away even IF the shako was issued as full dress wear.

Spain/Peninsular was a mishmash of units and times, often an exception to everything 'normal'. Junots initial corps probably had some. Reinforcement and combined corps units marching directly from Frances depots most likely had the new equipment and uniform. Thus the recruits marched to and looked better than [some of] the veterans they joined initially.

There was nothing precious in the French 'system' that first battalions were advantaged over others of the regiment. Their 'depot' location or more advisedly their immediate General Commandant often had more influence than 'precedence' when it came to replacement and/ or improvements.

And do not forget that bearskins, and colpacks when developed were articles 'of distinction' and given to foot and horse alike, like arms d'honneur previously, to companies and units that distinguished themselves in battle. Thus in such units bearskins were not discarded for shakos for any reason, let alone bureaucracy.
regards davew

In 1806 the French line did wear hats, 1807 was a transition period, apart from the gradually introduction of the shako also some units adopted the white coat – in 1809 all should wear shakos – at least looking at contemporary prints of the 1809 campaign.
Light infantry did already wear shakos in 1805 – but it had a different shape as that one of 1809.

the hat by the way has no shortcomings in my view, it was re placed due to fashion.

As said above, officers could wear the hat to the end of the Napoleonic times, especially in the field

Out of interest, von W, what do you consider were the virtues of a 'bicorne' hat from the point of view of a soldier on campaign (whether a shako addressed the perceived shortcomings is different matter)?

it is light – compared to a shako, and the outlook is much better – looks in my view very military as well – maybe I am too much 18th century

" it was considered pretty useless, and carefully channeled rainwater onto the wearers shoulders, to quote one source. " I was in US Navy boot camp in May and the white hats we wore (Dixie cups) actually held water. Once it filled up it would run down the brim and then you neck and, carefully avoiding the collar of the raincoat entirely go inside your shirt. Your only choice was whether the water ran down your face, an ear or your back.

Easy to see from this thread who has an understanding of the army logistics branch and who doesn't! Who has served in the ranks and who hasn't! :)

You all need an encounter with a Quartermaster or Ordnance Chief and then you'll understand.

Bad enough to day, even worse in the Napoleonic period when each regiment was its own business and its uniform allowance was discretionary – the the discretion of the regimental quartermaster.

"it was considered pretty useless, and carefully channeled rainwater onto the wearers shoulders"

I must admit that, whether worn 'athwart' or 'fore and aft' (en colonne) the last iteration of the cocked hat seemed to offer the wearer little protection from sun or rain, with a certain air of dash as compensation.

The chapeau bras was certainly lighter and more comfortable than the shako which only offered a modest peak (visor) as a useful addition.

The chapeau didn't do too well in wet weather, including snow. It had a tendency to and would droop out of shape.

The shako was made of heavy felt and leather or of boiled leather. It was a good protection against saber cuts and butt strokes with a musket. The visor was a shade for the eyes (which the chapeau did not have) and there were loops on the inside for carrying such personal items as a mirror and brushes. Some also had waterproof coiffes including a neck flap which could be let down to protect the soldiers' necks in bad weather.

I should be interested to know if there has been measurement of the percentage time a shako actually was called to protect against a sabre cut (let alone actually proving effective) against its functioning principally as a hot. heavy, and generally uncomfortable headcover for the long-suffering soldier. The peak was of marginal service while the ears were left to broil and rain simply ran down the sides.

sabre cuts were generally only deflected, and this is for hats as well, when underneath extra like a scarf or anything else was carried

All well and good as far as that goes.

The bottom line is that the shako, and it was in more form than one, was considered superior to the chapeau which is why it was adopted.

Glencairn stated:

i) I think that most 1st btn units received the shako by the start of the 1807 campaign; ii) it was considered pretty useless, and carefully channeled rainwater onto the wearers shoulders, to quote one source.

I missed this originally, but I say on each point (my numbering):
i) Your belief on this has no traction in fact.
ii) Utter rubbish. Your quotation [was] given by several authorities, but about the chapeau most definitely NOT any model of shako.

I'd just add that Napoleon did not consider the Peninsular a backwater of any kind.
Anyone who conducted the efforts of minutae that he did over military and civil service wasn't one to write off 50,000 troops so off-handedly.
Nor did he consider submission to an invading British force as acceptable to his aims or the interests of France.

Further, von Winterfeldt states:

iii) Light infantry did already wear shakos in 1805 – but it had a different shape as that one of 1809.
iv) the hat by the way has no shortcomings in my view, it was replaced due to fashion.

Legere regiments had in some cases shako's in 1800. Yes they may well have been different, but that does not impact on the OP query. Yes they evolved, gained or lost attributes.

And more; nsolomon99 throws out:

v) even worse in the Napoleonic period when each regiment was its own business and its uniform allowance was discretionary – the the discretion of the regimental quartermaster.

Again? Regiments did not dictate their 'uniform wear'; even less did a quartermaster control purchasing. Except the Army of Italy who 'requisitioned' theirs from Italian factories. (The unofficial paper that Bonaparte used).

Sure, tete du colonne and regimental specialists had 'extra' money spent on them, from their Colonels or officers expenses and accounts. And despite outward rules and appearances, the Emperor encouraged diversity and competition between units.

The Ministry controlled equipment and clothing; requests, additions or changes were sometimes made directly to the Minister, other times over complaints of delay to others, including the Premiere Consul/ Emperor.

Sure, corruption existed everywhere- cheaper materials used; faulty manufacture or short-changed deliveries. But do not ascribe to malice what incompetence ensures will happen.
d

the shako was adopted due to fashion, it did not protect the neck at all and water was running into the collar, later then neck flaps were introduced at the shako cover to prevent this, the hat in fact protect the neck much better when wearing it for and aft – it had a revival in the ACW anyway.

Bicornes in the ACW?

the shako was adopted due to fashion…

Then most everyone did it-Russians, Prussians, British, Americans, etc.

…it had a revival in the ACW anyway.

Really? Kepis, forage caps, Hardee hats, porkpie hats, etc., but no French-style chapeaus.

not bicornes but hats of course, did I write bicornes? The French did not wear bicornes – the hat had three tips, only later in the Boney period the officers hats, getting very high and flat, would serve more like a bicorne, the only classic bicorne I know are the Prussian ones of 1792

There were not many units around in the ACW with shakos, which makes the argument that a shako was better protection than a hat, void.