"First M4/76 in NWE?" Topic

Anyone know what model the first M4/76 tanks were in NWE? I assume M4A1's as they were the first to go into production and the M4A3's didn't start arriving until September IIRC.

M4A1 76w just in time for Cobra.

KM has it right.

The first 100 76mm Shermans were M4A1s. These were shipped to ETO in the spring of 1944. They were available in the UK by late May, but were not included in the D-Day and follow-up unit landings, as the unit commanders politely declined to take new tanks into their units that their crews would have no opportunity to train on before entering combat (for their first time).

Once German armor was encountered in the Boccage, the 100 M4A1 76mm Shermans were quickly shipped over and distributed at the rate of a few per battalion. There were significant differences in how they were distributed down to companies and platoons. But in any case it was only 100 tanks.

The first M4A3 76mm tanks did not arrive in ETO until about September. At that point, the great majority of 76mm Shermans (and in fact the great majority of all Shermans) provided for American units in ETO were M4A3s. Most M4A1 76mm went to MTO or to lend-lease.

Or so I recall from some detailed looks at the shipping rates a year or two back. Might have mis-recalled some of it…

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

M4A1 76w just in time for Cobra.

So mid to late July '44?

Mark did anymore M4A1 76mm make it to NWE before September or was it just the initial 100? That would leave over a month with no 76mm tanks making it to France if that is the case, which would have made the 76mm M4 a rare bird probably until October.

Mark did anymore M4A1 76mm make it to NWE before September or was it just the initial 100?

This is my understanding.

Hard to prove a negative, so I offer the view with full willingness to be shown if I am wrong. But I believe that the first 100 were all that came into ETO until the taps started flowing on the M4A3s with the 76mm gun.

Pulling from memory, but I think there were about 30 medium tank battalions in Armored Divisions in ETO by the end of summer. Most of the 76mm armed Shermans went to these. That means perhaps 3 per battalion, or 1 per company, if they had been really evenly distributed. No reason to assume they were that evenly spread around, though, so you should think in terms of 0 to 6 per battalion. That could be 0 to 2 per company, again if the battalions did even distribution. We have no reason to assume all battalions did this, though, so you might see 0 to 6 in a given company, or even 0 to 5 in a given platoon.

But keep in mind that this is total available over a period of 3 months or so, not total available on any given day.

After the tap opened on 76mm Sherman shipments it was still few-to-none of the M4A1s with the 76mm gun coming into ETO. The flow of 76mm armed Shermans into ETO was all (almost all?) M4A3s. Then the flow started to shift to M4A3 76mm HVSS ("M4A3E8") in winter -- maybe around December.

New armored divisions that arrived / deployed in ETO in the fall probably had a reasonable quantity from the start -- maybe 6 to 9 per battalion (could be distributed down to 1 per platoon). Armored divisions that had already been in ETO for months would have had a relatively eclectic mix of Shermans by late fall -- perhaps mostly M4A1 75mm Shermans, with a couple M4 105mm HMC Shermans, one or two M4A1 76mm Shermans, and perhaps another couple M4A3 76mm Shermans.

In this same timeframe the GHQ tank battalions (infantry support tank battalions) would have been last in line for the 76mm Shermans, but first in line for the Sherman (M4A3E2) Jumbos. Quantities there got up past 4 or 5 per battalion pretty quickly in the fall.

Both Armored Division and GHQ tank battalions were clamoring at the time for their share of the 105mm Shermans. Which version they got (M4 or M4A3) depended mostly on what the dominant version of Sherman was in their battalion. If they had M4s or M4A1s (radial engines) they got M4 105s. If they had M4A3s (Ford GAA engines) they got M4A3 105s. Mostly. Theoretically. But not always.

At least that was the intent -- providing 105mm Shermans with an engine type matched to the engine type of the other Shermans in the battalion.

But with the 76mm Shermans it was more just that the M4A1s were all that was available in summer, and went to ETO. By fall the M4A3s went to ETO, and the M4A1s went to MTO, and that's what you got regardless of the dominant Sherman type in the battalion. Oh, and M4A2s with the 76mm went to other armies. Again pretty much regardless of what their dominant Sherman type was.

As I think of building my wargaming US Army, in the summer of 1944 I use M4A1s for my 76mm Shermans, but they should be rare. Fall and the 76mm Shermans start to become more common (growing numbers into winter), but they will mostly be M4A3s with VVS suspensions. Then in winter M4A3s with HVSS start appearing, again rare, while the majority of Shermans with 76mm are still M4A3s with VVS. By end of war in ETO (April/May 1945) Sherman 76s are starting to become the majority in some, but maybe not all, formations (perhaps 2 or 3 per platoon). M4A3 HVSS are no longer rare, but still there are probably more M4A3 VVS around. M4A1s with 76mm in ETO should still be rare, perhaps rare enough to ignore entirely. But in MTO those very lovely M4A1 76mm HVSS Shermans (don't know why, but that's my favorite look for a Sherman) should be reasonably common.

Y'all got that? Hope you were taking notes, it'll be on the test at the end of the semester.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Mark 1:

Good info!

From its first acceptance in January of 1944 until the last unit was accepted in July of 1945 the US produced a total of 3,426 M4A1-76. Of those 1,961 were VVSS and 1,465 were HVSS. Of the total M4A1-76s 1,330 were provided to the UK under lend lease. Montgomery did not want the 76 armed Shermans in 21st Army Group preferring the Firefly. As a result the bulk of the lend lease M4A1-76s served with UK forces in Italy. The exception was the 1st Polish Armored Division which operated the M4A1-76 in Northwest Europe.

From its initial acceptance in March of 1944 until the last unit was accepted in April 1945 a total of 4,542 M4A3-76s were produced. Of those 1458 were VVSS and 3,084 were HVSS. The M4A3-76 was used exclusively by US forces (though, if memory serves me correctly, 2 of the HVSS 76 versions were provided the UK for testing/familiarization). The M4A3-76 did serve in Italy, though rarer there, with the first units arriving in the Fall of 1944.

Did I pass Mark? :)

Not sure of accuracy of source below but it shows slightly different numbers and allocations. Cheers!

link

Did I pass Mark?

Yes, Marc, you passed Mark. You passed me right by, zooming up to the highest marks in the class.

I always appreciate the real data. And you have provided some very good stuff! Many thanks for the number of tanks.

- Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

M4A1s with 76mm in ETO should still be rare, perhaps rare enough to ignore entirely.

Apparently 85 of the tanks supplied by the British to the US in the winter of ‘44/45 were M4A1/76 models, so the their numbers get a little boost at that point. They started being issued to US AD's in January 1945.

Apparently 85 of the tanks supplied by the British to the US in the winter of ‘44/45 were M4A1/76 models…

Interesting tidbit, Fred.

Do you know if these tanks were in the UK when turned over? I'm guessing so. It would not make sense for them to have been shipped from MTO, and if they had been "turned over" as in a foregone shipment … well the total number of Shermans wasn't the problem so much as the total number of Shermans in US Army hands IN ETO.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

The request was to 21st AG, so Shermans already in Commonwealth vehicle parks on the continent or available in the UK. Request went out 26th December and by end of the first week of January the US had taken delivery of 351 tanks, so they must have been close at hand. My guess is that the M4A1's came from tanks earmarked for the Poles.

Or they could have been originally earmarked for the Italian campaign. I think 2 RTR used them alongside Fireflies.

I wonder if the UK got a lend lease credit for giving some back? :-)

The request was to 21st AG, so Shermans already in Commonwealth vehicle parks on the continent or available in the UK. … by end of the first week of January the US had taken delivery of 351 tanks, so they must have been close at hand. My guess is that the M4A1's came from tanks earmarked for the Poles.

Interesting!

OK, so M4A1 76s can indeed have a reasonable place among my US Army forces in ETO in 1945. Good to know!

And yes, I can see how they might have been placed in stock for the Poles. The Poles were supplied by the British, while the French were supplied by the Americans. Gives a plausible explanation of their presence within 21AG's supply, as the Brits didn't want the Sherman 76 for service in ETO.

Or they could have been originally earmarked for the Italian campaign.

Possible, particularly if they came from stock in the UK (rather than stock already on the continent). But as it was a request to 21AG, that seems to indicate that they were destined for ETO.

Hmmm…

I wonder if the UK got a lend lease credit for giving some back?

Can't claim any knowledge on this particular transaction, but they did get credit back for several other occasions of "reverse lend-lease".

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Great info Mark

Cheers
Matt
Hercé Salon de Guerre
Mayenne, France
"Walk the battlefield in the morning, wargame it in the afternoon"