"Handheld Devices in Miniature Games... cheap secure C2" Topic

Hi, all… I've been contemplating a naval game (fantasy, but it doesn't have to be) that might have "wired via infrared" element built into it for the players. I'm working on a system that could use cheap Palm III handhelds to beam orders back in forth in short hand, with a laptop keeping track of everyone's move through a bluetooth connection.

Some thoughts on this are given here: link

My question is: Does anyone know of an instance of a GM using handhelds like a Palm or Pocket PC for player use? Did the GM have any utilities (other than a die roller) to assist in the mechanics of the game itself, or did he just use it to communicate information from player to player?

Again, this is just a wild hairy idea, it might amount to nothing, or it might amount to something.

Walt

Bob Jones of "Piquet" fame has written a rules system utilizing iPods, which (I think) touches upon some of the possibilities for hand-helds that you mention.

I think the possibilities with hand-helds and wireless networks of the type you describe are fascinating, and may be a big leap forward once established.

I contemplated using laptops on a local net to keep records and do other things for a naval game. But I always worry about somebody walking off with this at a con. So gave it up.

I have played a classic Battletech game where the record sheets were kept in PDA's and hits were beamed back and forth via infra red. The system was buggy and had the possibility of inadvertantly cheating, but the idea sounded good.

There used to be a version of Army Builder for PalmOS and there was another company who produced an Army Builder like program that also had a PalmOS version.

It would be nice to have AB3 on Windows Mobile or PalmOS, sure beats the heck out of hand building your army list! I rememmber the days when it took you an hour just to put together your 2nd Edition 40K army list!

Wow, thanks for the tip on AB for the PALM OS, BrothersJ. That would indeed be something.

I am aware of Bob Jones' efforts to use Ipods for gaming (I refer to in my blog entry, above) but don't know much about how it works beyond that. I intended to attend his lecture on the subject at HISTORICON but got waylaid by Con gossip.

I know that Arthur Ross once put together a pretty hip little concept called CYBERTANK SOLO for the Palm OS. You moved miniatures around, the Palm did all the rest (hit resolution, firing etc.). Beautiful and elegant, but geared towards that specific game.

Arthur and I had a few discussions about doing something more generic at one point, but it amounted to little beyond talk.

Any other Palm or handheld player aids out there? (beyond die rollers, I mean).

Walt

There is a guy in Michigan that uses a computer for his Naval game. He is been doing it for so long I am not joking when I say he uses a "Trash 80"

The usual problem with computer-assisted rules is that data entry is a choke point. Using networked PDAs could solve that problem.

On a more practical level I see a problem with the hardware requirements: Either the GM has to foot the bill for the ENTIRE system, or he'll have the scrounge far and wide to get enough players with compatible systems.

As I am still in my BattleTech Renaissance (tm), I could really see where it would benefit from something like this. The data entry points would be low, and a ton of dice rolling could be avoided. The GM is a techie, so hmm… have to think about this.

On a more practical level I see a problem with the hardware requirements: Either the GM has to foot the bill for the ENTIRE system, or he'll have the scrounge far and wide to get enough players with compatible systems.

Well, I've found that the Palm III might be sufficient if we're talking IR only networking here. I actually have a link to Ebay on the blog entry above for Palm IIIs right now. The going price is about ten bucks each, it seems.
Given my druthers I'd take a Palm right now, not because it's a superior machine but the OLDER, CHEAPER ones are very capable and I can afford to make an investment in sufficient numbers to make this experiment work.

For Palms or Pocket PCs, I consider the chokepoint being data entry itself. ANYTHING that can prevent the end user from having to learn graffiti** or graffiti-like data entry would be a plus.

So that's why I'm interested in leveraging this older, mature platform (Palm III) with some form of rapid data entry format, like a form that has standard "Orders Language" that can generate a shorthand TXT output that could be beamed rapidly to another PIII platform.

I suspect (sigh) that it might have to be written. Talk about a REAL bottleneck!

Walt

(** Note: Graffitti is the handwriting recognition software on handheld devices these days… I'm a Palm user so I don't know what's comparable on Pocket PCs)

Do you guys mind if I capture some of the commentary on here for my BLOG? I don't want to lose the bubble in the gazillion threads generated on TMP per day…

Walt,

I'm a programmer, but generally ignorant of Palm's. If I could pick up a couple on the cheap and play with them, I would be happy to explore this. Could you (or someone?) post a quick Palm summary, or email me to discuss it?

Cheers,

Christopher
christopher@tenwolde.us

Basic question: are Palm's (the older ones you mention) programmable? Even a basic language with logic branching and a randomizer could work wonders, with players beaming info to a GM Palm, and the GM beaming the results back.

There must be websites dealing with this … (too lazy to google)

Walt,

What about using generic, programmable remote controls?
It would take some doing, but you could configure a bunch of them to have a unique "signature" (i.e., choose a different system it was emulating). Different buttons could then be used to beam the orders.

Palm IIIs are detailed here:

link

There are detailed specs available about the type of IR, memory, system OS, etc.

In general, the older palms used flash memory (2MB worth) and were not expandable. You add programs to the Palm using a desktop interface called "Hotsynch" and "Palm Desktop", which opened up a conduit through the serial port between the Flash Memory and your desktop. The Palm OS will automatically recognize files in native Palm application format (extensions *.PRC) or libraries (*.pdb).

The Palm III and V utilized v. 3.0 of the Palm OS, and likely the III couldn't be upgraded to a higher one.

The system has many built in firmware bits (calendar, memo, address book, clock, etc.), some of these could be modified or deleted.

There's a few developer software packages for the Palm Pilot. Here is an overview of those:
palmos.com/dev/tools

Here is an excellent overview for how to develop for the Palm:
link

Pat:

Some work has been done in sending differently encoded IR signals (like a TV remote) already. The problem I see is in how to make the message readable on the far end. The "universal remote approach" if I can call it that, would entail hardcoding the messages for the different buttons into the software, and then compiling it (well, I dunno… maybe it would.). Since every game is different that might cause problems.

The way I would approach it would be a command definition file (like a database dictionary). You modify and add to the Command Def file to generate your own command set (attack! withdraw! assault! Fire!, etc.) in a TXT file that can be converted into a PDB Palm library. The actual application is a parser that pulls out the Command out of the PDB library and serves it up as text in a memo file. You modify the memo using the memo pad function (you can use the built in "soft keyboard" if you don't want to learn graffitti). The cool part is that the memo pad can beam memos.. you don't have to write that bit of code.

Walt

I think someone had done some work with XML on the PalmOS for Army Builder files.

I'm a software developer and game designer myself. With the ever-increasing popularity of handheld devices, Pocket PC's, and wireless technology, I'm planning on extending my own existing PowerBuilder development knowledge for desktop and client/server apps to handheld devices using Sybase's relatively new PocketBuilder development tool.

I think it's only a matter of time until you starting seeing some wargame related apps for the Pocket PC and handhelds, as well as some fresh takes on computer-assisted apps using laptops. With an intelligent design that doesn't require the GM to enter data until his fingers bleed, but rather limits data-entry to the bare minimum and lets the computer do the hard work, there's no reason that both laptops and handhelds shouldn't be able to improve the overall wargame experience.

Despite some old school wargamers' aversion to technology, the merging of computers and wargames seems inevitable. Technology stops for no one! I saw several computer-assisted games being played at Historicon, and have plenty of positive buzz about systems like Carnage & Glory, and that system certainly isn't state-of-the-art technology. So progress will inevitably be made. Some oldsters will resist and will never adopt it, but I bet a lot of folks in their early 40's and 30's who were raised around computers (as well as younger gamers) will readily accept it.

I guess the bottomline is that Walt's ideas are excellent ones in my humble opinion. I don't see it as a wild idea, but rather, excellent foresight.

It seems to me the big problem with any computer moderated game is: Where are the dice?

No Dice = No fun!

I like dice, myself. But that's not what we're talking about here.

A refinement… I didn't think of this at first glance, but there are a whole series of thumb keyboards or foldable/collapsable keyboards for early Palm series handhelds (and presumably, other handhelds) now going for next to nothing on Ebay as well. I just saw a bunch of them for about 1.99 each. Keyboard would greatly simplify text entry for players not used to handhelds.

Walt

I jotted a couple of notes down last night about a supporting application for "wired gaming" last night. Here's a little bit of it:

link: link

If you have suggestions, I'd like to hear them.

Walt

Interesting ideas here. Anyone gotten any further on this recently?

I've been slowly plugging away at my own army-builder type program. I can't run Army Builder on my desktop or laptop (linux), and I recently acquired a Palm m130 that was to be discarded. I have glanced at the Palm design docs and it looks like it might not be too hard to port to this platform.

I'll see if I can get any further on my program, since there does seem to be some intrest. Haven't had time to do much with it lately.

Walt – that's a pretty simple system. I like things that follow KISS. But I think you don't even need to do step 2C (export to memo), since you should be able to access beaming from within the app.