"None landsknecht/swiss figures for Italian wars. " Topic

So several makes swiss and landsknecht (particularly landsknecht)
But if you want Italians, Spanish or French (outside of gendarmes) you're mostly stuck with TAG and mabye some old glory.

Is there a possibility to kitbash the French 1450-1500 plastic range with the warlord landsknecht range to make 1500-1520 French and Italians?

You may have run across Stuart's blog--he provides information on creating French infantry for the early 16th century, by kitbashing Perry miniatures:

link

link

The TAG Italians and Neapolitan / Spanish will do for most occasions for Italians, Spanish and French. You can mix most of them together for variety.

TAG, Foundry, OG and Essex mix fairly well size wise.

One thing to remenber, I think, is that except for Landsknechts, ethnic Stradiots, and some other odds and ends, most Europeans generally followed the same fashions when it came to dress.

Personally, having looked at hundreds of contemporary paintings and frescos of the period I wouldn't get too hung up about national differences – I can't bring any obvious ones to mind.

Also remember, Italy and Germany supplied most of Europe with a big percentage of its armour, so not many differences there either.

I use interchangeable flags for all of my Italian Wars units because most troop types can fight for any side – this also includes Swiss and Landsknechts, because when fighting as mercenaries they were generally given flags by their employer as part of their contract.

A link to flags:
link

Here Foundry Swiss, being used as Picard pike, with French flags, attack the Spanish at Ravenna.

The same Swiss figures, as Swiss with Swiss flags, attack the French at Marignano.

In regards to the Warlord Landsknecht; Perry Renaissance heads will work on them with minor modification.

I use a mix of Perry and Warlord figures for my WHFB Empire Army.

BTW, the rear rank of the Swiss pike square in the second photo are not Foundry, they are OG – because I only have 72 of the Foundry figures and needed 96 for each of the Swiss blocks in this battle. Note there is little to choose between them for height and build.

The crossbowmen, lower left in the second shot, are Front Rank WotR figures with the odd turban added. You can't mix these in the same units as the others, but in separate units they are within the acceptable limit IMHO.

I've watched your blog olicana, many times, you inspired me to start the Italian wars, you've also helped me on mail.

The reason I ask, is I generally don't like the TAG figures, I'm not a huge fan of the style, and the price is too high for the quality.

I prefer the less clunky figures like Perry, and the pro gloria and now steel fist landsknecht are very nice, sadly none makes swiss in the same style/quality, much less Spanish, French or Italians.

I don't have the skills to green stuff Perry figures to match.

I'm not a huge fan of warlord but I might use them if they started to release some more stuff, but they don't seem interested in doing much with their Italian war range.

I have kitbashed WG and Perry plastics to see what can be achieved a while back. I have a week of work to do, but could then dig them out and make some pics.

Results are interesting. As the depictions of "rank and file" for the Italians, French and Spaniards before 1530 are scarce you can get away with a lot here… :-)

Here you see the results of a quick kitbash of the WG pike box (just that, not the others yet) with some of the Perry sets. In some cases I added the Perry arms to the WG bodies and vice versa. Swapping the heads gives quite good Italian style infantry for some of the Perry heads, and a few of the WG heads push the plain Perry bodies forward into the 16th century.

I did not try to create any specific unit here, just combining what looked interesting. I am quite sure that with more time and determination (and the new sprues from WG) better results can be achieved. Yet … these are (very) far from the historical authentic conversions that Stuart does. Overall, however, I am quite disappointed with the WG sprues – a chance missed. They could have been SO MUCH better. These minis will probably never march in my historical armies, though they do have their place in the forces of Balkenheim.

Steel fist says they are going to release mounted crossbow and arqebusers. So hopefully some none landsknecht infantry too some time in the future.

I think TAG infantry are good. Their cavalry less so.

These are TAG Italian pike. Shot are a mix of Foundry, TAG and OG.

And TAG pike before basing.

Got to admit, I also love the TAG infantry, they look good to me and are very easy to paint. I can paint a pike block of TAG figures in about half the time it takes me to paint those of other manufacturers.
I guess everyone has different preferences.

There are two reasons I don't like TAG, I honestly think they are overpriced for what you get, their infantry is not just a tiny smidgen cheaper than steel fist infantry.
But more importantly their style don't suit my painting style/technique/skills.

When Olicana does them they look great, not so much if I paint then.

By the way Olicana I sent you a mail 5 days ago , not sure if you still use the same mail or if it's in the spam filter.

Well, I dont care about the price and I dont paint my own figures,so…

I like the Idea of all the different TAG pikemen used for Italian militia.

Somehow I see the Italian infantry as more conservative and less flamboyant/stylish than the Swiss or Landsknechts.

It's probably just in my mind but I see the Italian troops as sort of having to be on the battlefield whether they like it or not vs the Swiss/Germans who lived to fight like Danny kaye's Giacomo alter ego from "The Court Jester" film.

A lot of the Italians would be just as mercenary as the swiss and landsknecht.

It's just in the Italian Wars of my mind that the Italians are city levies and wearing whatever leftover equipments their armories have.

Do you know if the Swiss or Italian city state units ever wore uniforms, or at least similar colors in a unit? Or were all the landsknecht, Swiss and Italian Pike and shot basically just a riot of diversity?

Guys; great stuff, very informative!

If you are in London, visit the Victoria and Albert Museum. There is a woodcut there made in the 1520 that shows a fine variety of "Roman" style armor of the era (while showing a biblical scene). :-)

The shown style is way different from Swiss and Landknechts, but certainly not Roman and not less flamboyant.

Overall the Italians (and Spanish, and French) performed as medium to light infantry, not heavy battle, as the Swiss and Landsknechts. They were as mercenary as any other, with few exceptions when a city really was in need and scratched the bottom for a levee. Looking at the existing groups, most famous the Bande Nere, most were as professional as any other nations troops.

What made Francis' Royal Swiss…royal? Did they wear more helmets and less feathers as in TAG's sculpts for the Royal Swiss?

Also, will these do for Henry VIII's guards nearing 1544?
link

Or is it better to use the Redoubt Enterprises Henry VIII guard figures? link

Bear in mind, I will be using almost exclusively TAG make for the English and have never seen the Redoubt figures, thus if the Redoubt figures (Reputed to be largish) are too much bigger than the TAG (Reputed to be smallish) by say, more than a head taller), that might be yet another issue.

@MiniPics

Looking at my TAG and Redoubt, I am not fielding them together on the same base.

Redoubt are indeed larger and their sculpting quality is a notch (or two) below TAG. Nothing that should keep you from using them, though, as they offer equipment, poses and scenes that nobody else does, and at 28mm they work well. Get yourself a small sample and judge for yourself.

@Puster,

I was more worried about the proper outfit for Henry VIII's guard than the size.

Figure size is also an issue but only because I intended to use TAG for the rest of the English army and I would imagine Redoubt figures and TAG's are literally at opposite ends of the size spectrum?

For clothing/outfits, the Swiss didnt wear more Canton based colors in concentrated sub areas of their units?

Thus different patches of their pike units would all be from the same canton and have similar color clothing schemes like red/white, black/yellow?

Or, did the Swiss wear as much of a riot of color as the Landsknechts?

I also thought the Swiss wore more feathers in their cap than other nations?

It's odd that the more I look for Swiss pikemen I like, the less I find. I dont know how that's possible.

I like the TAG and would never mix them with other figures in the same unit but I wonder out loud before buying a lot of them whether they will still look puny near units of Artizan and Steel Fist? Does anyone have any relative comparisons?

I would not have any worries about TAG units along side SteelFist. The SteelFist are bigger, but I have never had anyone comment during a game. Here are some pics:

First, some SteelFist Landschnekt left and centre. Spanish infantry on the right from TAG and some Foundry Swiss in front of the Spanish. I don't really notice the difference in size.

Here is another view from the side:

For the cavalry, here are some TAG Spanish Jinetes facing down some SteelFist Gendarmes. The Gendarmes are really large figures and again, I have not had an issue in a game.

Well done game! Figures and terrain look very nice. I have all of those figures unpainted… maybe this will inspire me to break out the paints, dust off the miniatures and get to work? Thanks for sharing.

Wow, great pics!

Do you have any closeups of your Steel Fist infantry units anywhere? As they are relatively new releases, I've yet to see completed big units of them. You seem to have done it though!

I don't have any close up photos at the moment. I will try and take a photo of both the blocks together this weekend and post it then.

@Martyn K

What a great collection! I see what you mean about the relative miniature brand sizes; if kept in their same units it's a nonevent.

I love how you mounted them all individually to then put on terrain bases? Are the magnetized? You must have the patience of an entire football team of saints.

I love the look of the game; even the fir trees have a certain Spanish Inquisition look to them.

Where is the teddy bear mat from?

Sorry for the late reply, I have been busy recently.

Here is closer image of the Steel Fist pike block.

Also here is a link to a blog post I just wrote on large pike blocks. link
I am planning to make the a Landschnekt pike block of 196 figures (14 wide x 14 deep) for Ravenna. I will be using Steel Fist figures for this block, but it may take me a while to paint up.

whoa, these are great. Did you paint over paper flags?

196 figures!? Pfft, a mere skirmish line, sir.

I hope Steel Fist gives you a discount on that order? That's like 50 packs of their stuff.

The flags are from Pete's Flags. He does a very nice range of Italian Wars flags which he sells on the UK eBay site.
I just cut them out, fold them, apply white Elmers glue and put them on the pole. I then let them dry for about a minute, then shape them before they completely dry.
After that I just touch up the edges with a little paint so you don't have an ugly white line.
I then put some flag tops with tassels from Front Rank – probably not historically accurate, but I think it gives the flags a nice look.

Wouldn't a discount be nice, lol.

The flags are very nice. I like the tassels idea; it gives the flags a civilized look.

Did you fit various heads on various bodies or did you find that certain heads only went on specific bodies?

Who made the movement trays for you? I am thinking of putting my pikemen on stands of maybe 6 per base but all fitting into a tray that take maybe 9 to 12 bases for movement's (aka sanity's)sake.

Yes, I think you should get a good discount for that size of an order. That's a lot to order; and this is coming from someone who often makes big orders themselves.

Most heads go on most bodies. However, I tend to put the armored heads on the armored bodies. Also, I found that I put a wide brimmed hat on a body with the pike going vertical and when I came to add the pike it would not fit, so I needed to swap the head. But overall you can mix and match the heads at will to get good variation. There is also a pack of extra heads to get even more variation.

Other questions that I have been asked:
The movement trays are from Litko – a great company. I have a flexible magnet in the movement tray. The figures have some flexible steal on the bottom of the base so they stick to the movement trays. Your idea for basing would certainly work with the Litko bases.

The mats are from Killing Fields Terrain. I just cut some roads into them with some cheap hair clippers and then applied a mixture of brown paint, Elmers glue and model railroad ballast to get the road cooler and texture.

While we are on the subject, does anyone have personal experience with both Eureka Gendarmes and TAG Renaissance knights?

I like the TAG English but wanted to use a set of gendarmes that were a bit more animated than the TAG ones and which have the same sort of height/heft look of the TAG figures.