"Black Conquistadores" Topic

I had never seen this before:

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Interesting. I might need to darken a couple of my figures a bit.

Not sure where the first link get's the idea that it's a revolutionary perspective of the real conquest. Any reading of the various codexes gives a perfectly clear picture that Cortes was extremely lucky in so many aspects and the fall of the Aztecs had so much to do with their abandonment and by their allies who subsequently banded up against them.

The negroes were mentioned several times at least by Diaz and in the Florentine Codex. The first link implies there were thousands of them, the number is fairly small.

I like the second link, very nice to see obscure info put publicly.

Can't comment on the third link, I don't know anything beyond the victory of the Spanish at Tenochtitlan.

I'm still waiting for some Conquistadoras. You don't hear much about them either.

I got a chance to glance at the book a few weeks ago in a discount book store. Wish I had gotten the book.

If memory serves me, it had a table listing about 20 or so black conquistadores and a similar number of conquistadoras.

Again, I wish I had the book. Then, at least, I would have names I could cross reference in further research.

Hugh Thomas "Who's Who of the Conquistadores" is a good source (but expensive) for the names and backgrounds of all (most) of the conquistadores, plus where they joined the expeditions and where they are referred to in documents. It would be good for you doing your research there Arturo.

He mentions a lady doing translation work in Seville (sorry Bronze Goat, the book only arrived after your had already gone) who has done many of the testimonies relating to the conquest. I am not sure whether he means translation from old Spanish to new, or into English. Let me know if you want her details, it would save me tracking her down.

Ah Seville, it aint just a river in Egypt and so on…

Restall's "Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest" does not sound at all impressive. Like many other books I have come across that claim to explode historical myths, this one seems to "explode" interpretations that no serious historian – or for that matter a college student who has taken a basic US history survey class – takes seriously.

Not unexpected. Our town was involved in a lawsuit with St Augustine over the claim to the oldest town/settlement back in the 1970-80s.

Childersburg was the provincial capital of the Creek Indians called Coca or Coosa. The claim was based on the fact that when DeSoto came through in the 1540s, two men were left at the town. One was a Spaniard and the other was listed as a 'Moor' or negro.

When a later expedition returned to the area in the 1560s, mixed race children was evident based on skin tones, hair type and eye colors which were not normal for Native American tribes.

So here in Alabama we have known for decades about negroes being part of the Spanish Conquistador effort.

Hey RudyNelson, out of interest, who won the lawsuit?

St Augustine won the right to be the 'Oldest City' since they brought European women to the town.

Childersburg can still claim to be the 'Oldest Settlement in the USA'. At least that is what the 'City Clerk' told me the other day. I had my professional painted paint the Ral Partha Conquistador command group as DeSoto in a diorama. It is on display at City Hall.

I guess Puerto Rico is part of the U.S. sometimes, and sometimes not. If it is, San Juan would be the oldest.

St Augustine is the oldest continuous city…Pensacola was founded before St Augustine. We have a cross and the beach to make the approximate location of the first mass celebrate in the 48 states.

As to Puerto Rico…depends on who you talk to about it being part of the US. Half my wifes' family wants independence and half commonwealth….

But this is all European…the Indians, of which I am one, had towns and settlements prior to the Europeans. Still in the stoneage, but they did have settlements….

Hmmmm interesting debate…

Incidentally, Gades, Cadiz as it is known now, is considered to be the oldest city in Europe….anybody have any other ideas on that?

I think I've read somewhere that archaelogists have recently uncovered some 7,000 year old buildings in Austria.

The thing is, with Europe, pre-Columbian America and any other prehistoric settlements, you're dealing with what people happen to have found, rather than a complete sequence of documented settlement. The evidence is partial and skewed – as has often been pointed out, it is remarkable how many of Britain's major archaeological and geological sites are within easy bicycling distance of Oxford and Cambridge Universities!

Ijust have to tell you all: It was bloody obvious.

Do you suppose that a force 300-strong (at best, and counting all the expeditionary forces at the very beginning of the conflict) culd take donw a city with about 250,000 citizens?

Nope.

The pox had played it part and the few survivors in Tenochtitlan were overrun by the Tlaxcaltecans, Chintololos and Chicimecan, tribes who readily allied themselves to the Spaniards.

THOSE were the decisive factors in the fall of the Mexican (remember Aztecs are more correctly named as Mexica [Me-SHEE-kah]) empire.

A blunderbuss could fire like a volcano, yes… and it did so with the regularity of one, too.

Then, there were negroes coming to America as slaves about the same time the first position were won and set under firm Spanish/Allied control. Some might have fought in brief skirmishes in the Yucatan penninsula (especially in Campeche and Merida), and might have seen action as militia in the plantations and villas of the Tabascan region… but they SERVING as regular forces to the Spanish commanders it preposterous, at best.

Finally, Steve, Pre-Columbian America was by no means "pre-historic". There a lot of things here in Mexico City (and in many other countries)—well documented and not mere to be "found", that can shatter that impression, which is blatantly and arrogantly Eurocentric.

Javier, in regards to the 'Moors' in DeSotos army, there were a number listed as being among the common ranks. There were no 'slaves' listed as Muscogees and other local Native tribesmen were made to haul provisions for the Spanish.

Granted the 'Moors' may have been also used as orderlies to the aristocratic officers but they fought along side the Spanish troops. As one officer yelled at the routing Spaniards during one hard fought battle…(paraphrase)"Where are you running to? There are no safe walls of Castile to run to and find shelter. Fleeing to the wilderness can only mean your death."

Also Javier, did not certain Moors fight along side the Spanish during the Reconqusta against Grenada.

Point well taken, Rudy, but I think the term "Moors" is a bit off and may be a thing of confusing terms that look similar but are not so at all.

I'm inclined to believe that we really are really were "Moriscos" (Muslims who convereted to Catholicisms during the Reconquista), therefore they could effectively been members in the common ranks of an expeditionary force, as they were "Spaniards" if not counting with the necessary "Limpieza de Sangre" (true-born Catholics) to be considered Hidalgos and, therefore, with a chance to climb up the hierachical ladder of 16th Century Spain's military.

As Privateers, on the other hand…

I found this very interesting:

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There's always "Black Conquistador: The Narvaez Expedition in Florida" (Historic Adventure Series, No. 1) by I. Mac Perry. Boca Bay Books, 1998
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CC

Incidentally, Gades, Cadiz as it is known now, is considered to be the oldest city in Europe….anybody have any other ideas on that?

Gades is traditionally said to have been founded circa 1100 BC, which would leave it younger than Athens, Mycenae, etc. Archaeology doesn't support Gades being even that old, apparently, but different sources disagree on how old the oldest layers actually are.

One could argue the Greek centres weren't true cities in the Bronze Age, but then early Gades likely doesn't qualify either.

Wikipedia calls it "the oldest continuously-inhabited city in the Iberian Peninsula and possibly of all southwestern Europe"