" Wargaming Nineteenth Century Europe 1815-1878 Neil Thomas " Topic

Wargaming: Nineteenth Century Europe 1815-1878 Hardcover – March 16, 2012
by Neil Thomas

Is this any good? I am no authority on this period but is it chock full of good wargaming info?

I ask because I have a truck's worth of books Ive bought that people suggested I check out for myself because they were only @20…but it adds up!

That and i was underwhelmed with the book of his with all the different period wargaming rules. Seemed like something too simple minded for even someone simple minded like myself.

As always, he has some very interesting concepts, and scenarios. Very adaptable and thought provoking.

Yes. Best set of rules for this period I have played and plenty of scenarios, from historical battles to DIY. Deceptively simple, too. I've played 1866 Prussians and Austrians, 1870 Prussians, Imperial and Republican French and each has 'worked' in its own unique way and posed a different set of challenges.

Must say I've hummed and harred over the intro book too and I am a bit of an NT fanboy. There are some good ideas in it, but I would have to tweak them a fair bit before I was satisfied. The ACW army list is a good general guide for force ratios, however.

I'm surprised you didn't have a crack at the ECW set 😉

@Jeffers

Riiiight…

Actually, One of the reasons I am back in the hobby at all is that at my parents place I found these rule sets my Wargames club used a loooong time ago. One of them was an ECW set we wrote up but never played. Seem like fun. Back then (Early 1990s) even a child could easily afford to get armies painted up and I got two basic ECW armies in 15mm from the UK. We were about to indulge ourselves in some serious Edgehill repetition when life tossed me out of the hobby.

It's interesting that the 19th century isnt more popular and of course I like 1848 in Italy which seems as dead as Marley's ghost.

I have some sympathy there. I've now had three ECW armies in 25, 20 & 15mm and every attempt has ended in boredom and a small bring & buy profit, so you can't say I haven't tried. Historically interesting, militarily dull.

Sorry, I've crossed into another thread…

Good book, good rules. Bruce Weigle's books are worth buying too.

I'll second Jeffer's opinion of NT's 19th Century book. I also was a bit underwhelmed with his intro books. Just too simple and bland to be interesting to me.

Absolutely love the 19th book though. Slightly more detailed rules, with lots of specific flavour pertinent to the war or army. That said, if you think that each player should have an equal chance of winning, then you should look elsewhere. Most of the nations that lost their war, did so because something was wrong with their army, and these rules reflect that.

We've actually toyed with the idea of adding one extra unit per difference in command levels, in an ahistorical attempt to let the underdogs have a better chance.

Can't recommend this book highly enough.

I'd also echo Jeffers and Tony, the 19th Century book is the best by far IMO. Great generic and specific scenarios, good amount of army lists and the rules have more nuance to them. They are slightly more complicated but not much so. They have lists for the Risorgimento and both Schleswig wars in addition to some of the more well known conflicts.

OK, thanks guys.

I am getting some 30mm 1859 Austrians and French painted up in a sort of Toy Soldier style. I am also contemplating doing some 1848 Austrians and Italians…and French in 20mm as a quick alternative to my 40mm Napoleonics.

I figured if I did Napoleonics in a smaller scale, I might be too lazy to pull the big boys out. However, I still toy with the idea of doing 18mm Napoleonic Austrians because they can fight enemies all over the place in a 30 year span.

What 19th century wars do you people game?

I like NTs Nineteenth Century book, interesting tweaks for each period and army, and for those of us less bothered by equal match ups, plenty of historical scenarios.

My only criticism would an excessive use of saving throws, but that is common to all his rule sets and easily fixed.

I've converted them to use squares as I prefer Grids for this period. I do 1859, 1866 and 1870 generally.

Honestly, none at the moment as I stopped gaming over a year ago!

I did design the old Wargames South Franco Prussian 10mm range in the late 80s and have never lost interest in that war (who doesn't like bright red trousers?) but NTs book sold me on 1866 and I have Austrian forces in 10 and 15mm (who doesn't like bright blue trousers?).

I think that it is his best book. Good army lists which bring out the period flavour.

I have a large Franco-Prussian collection that I use with them and am looking at adding Austrians for 1859 and eventually 1848 Hungarian revolt…

Mike

I agree with all the positive comments about the 19th C. book. I don't like the command rules, however, and wouldn't force anyone to use them. Also, his scenario rules are somewhat draconian. I actually doubt if they reflect the historical record well. In any case, there's no reason to force gamers to play as dumb as some of the real life people – let them find their own, NEW mistakes, I say!

One of my old clubs back near Philadelphia has started gaming using those rules [or their take on them…], mostly posted here:
link

I will make a qualified disagreement about "Wargaming: an Intro" and all the 4-base game designs Neil Thomas has.

One thing to keep in mind regarding these game designs, especially the One-Hour Wargames: they tend to de-emphasize gaming by mechanics and be more focused on scenarios. To that end, I strongly recommend getting the OHW book for the 30 scenarios. Combined with the variably force list, there are several hundred gaming situations there!

Remember, most real generals has not only little choice in their troops but there usually wasn't a big difference between the sides. the 19th C. is one of those periods where there sometimes are important differences between the sides in weaponry and therefore tactics.

Finally, let's keep in mind that lots of the winning and losing was actually done at the strategic level, and not on the more tactical level where we usually play wargames! No one should be forced to do the stupid things that the losers did in real life!

For the nineteenth century, we decided to try 10mm figures from Pendraken; a new scale for us. We absolutely love them! Great figures and fast to paint.

We have armies for the 1859 war, but are raising Prussians for the FPW (and adding a few extra French units to use the 1859 army for 1870). As the Prussians can also be used for 1866, we're also raising Hanoverians. Obviously we have an Austrian army, but our poor Austrian player would like to try an army that could possibly win a battle! (I would add that the 1859 Austrians have actually won a couple of battles, but always when commanded by another player and not the owner!)

We tend to use the command rules, but now just for command. We don't penalize out of command units for firing.

The best thing about the OHW book is by far the scenarios. But we prefer using them for DBA games.

Oooh, yeah, I really really crunched the numbers on the Pendraken 10mm stuff. In the end, the deciding factors are my diminishing eyesight up close, the only other guy I know who plays FPW has 15s, and the amazing Old Glory 15s sale, which I got some crazy amount off at Christmas – may have been 50 or 60% off.

For me, 15s are the new 10s, and 25s are the new 15s.

I'm branching out into 40-54mm now, as I can see things easily!

Overall, I think 15s are the best compromise for a "mass" look and being able to distinguish things at 3 feet. I feel that 6-10mm figs are for parlor games on gentlemanly tables of about 3-5 feet in size.

I've had to go up a size from my Pendrakens due to eyesight problems, so went for Old Glory as the base with a view to mix in Lancashire, Freikorps and Essex as necessary.

I would still plug Pendraken for 10mm quality & service, though!

You CAN win with the Austrians. You have to be aggressive and take the initiative. Although I may have just been lucky….

In my experience, the key with the 19th C. rules is to set yourself up with parity where you are not attacking to hold the enemy. Then gain firepower advantage in the critical area over 1-3 infantry Units, take off a base or two, then charge, preferably with two units.

If you don't need to take ground, there's really no need to charge.

Overall, I think that weapon disparity is an issue that can be dealt with at the tactical level depending on the scenario, so it is up to the host to set up a scenario that the side with inferior weapons can still win. Either numbers, maneuvering, or the victory condition should help here.

The main problem in my experience is that so many gamers just throw equal forces on the table and slug away – that is always going to favor the side with the weapon advantage.

This is why I've found the OHW scenarios so useful – sure, not ALL of them are fair to both sides, but for example the last 10 scenarios are all 6 v. 4 situations and one can always make the PRussians the 4 if needed.

@Jeffers

When you say you up scaled due to eyesight problems, was that because you painted your own figures or because you just couldn't enjoy them on the tabletop? Or both?

Also, do you people use the same scale buildings for your miniatures? i ask because I am thinking of using 10 or 15mm buildings with 20mm figures.

Eyesight mainly. I started off sculpting 10mm figures but the smallest I can go now is 20mm. I'm ok with the table thing, it's the painting I have difficulty with (and I don't do detail, either!).

I always drop a size with buildings – I plan to use N gauge stuff with my 15s, so 15mm buildings will work fine with 20mm figures. All my 20/25mm scenery is made up of Airfix or Masterplan HO/OO scenery because I'm old school and every battlefield for that size must look like Britain in the 1950s.

You sculpted 10mm figures? That sounds quite interesting.

I dont paint so, I wouldnt know but can barely see the detail of the miniatures I have painted for me and I have 20/20 vision!

Yes, I like the idea of dropping a scale for figures, it gives a better ground scale footprint for larger scale tactical games. Any house/building brands you like besides Airfix?

Nothing wrong with Britain in the 1950s. I actually really like wargaming periods solely in Britain because it seems like a great big wargaming board whether it's Anglo-Saxon vs Viking, The '45 or Feudal Baronial Wars.

I suppose that's one reason why VBCW is popular. Did you ever game that?

I got that NT book with the scenario variants too. Brilliant recommendation and just right for solo gaming.

Yep. Back in the late 80s I started making figures for Wargames South, including a complete Franco-Prussian range, but real life got in the way and it just petered out. I was also sick of 10mm so never did anything with my own figures! I think I have one Prussian officer in my spares box, though.

I'm a sucker for Masterplan buildings. They are wood and card and originally made for National Trust shops. They stopped production around the same I did, but they turn up on eBay every so often. If you look at old copies of Miniature Wargames you occasionally see them 'tarted up' by Phil Robinson! They are surprisingly robust.

No interest at all in VBCW. I lump it into the goblin & space marine category!

We tend to use a scale smaller for all of our battles, except for skirmish games. So for our 10mm games, we use 6mm terrain.

I actually began painting my 10mm French but apparently like everyone else on this thread, discovered that my ageing eyesight wasn't quite up to the task of 10mm. So I finally broke down and bought a magnifying set of glasses with an LED light no less!

They are amazing, and now I find I cannot paint without them. The only downside – aside from my kids and wife snickering at my total geekiness – is that I have had to go back and repaint a lot of the figures I had done recently. I was horrified to see how badly they were painted, but was quite happy to discover that the figures did indeed have things like bayonet scabbards and breadbags.

I also have been very, very impressed with Pendraken's quality of figures, their price and above all, the owner Leon himself.

10mm seems like agony to paint, with or without magnifiers.

I do see what you people like in Pendraken miniatures, they are very well done. What is the benefit here? Smaller foot print on the table top, larger units, larger formations, larger battles, all of the above?

That brings into question what makes for an enjoyable wargame, is it the size and paint job on the miniatures, the terrain, a small but well managed game, a huge mega-battle, tactics, command and control?

Or is it the variety, being able to play an 8 figure skirmish one day and re-fighting Mars-La-Tour the next?

And, do you all like different scales of miniatures in the same or different periods?

We tend to use a scale smaller for all of our games, except for skirmish games. So for our 10mm games, we use 6mm terrain.

I actually began painting my 10mm French but apparently like everyone else on this thread, discovered that my ageing eyesight wasn't quite up to the task of 10mm. So I finally broke down and bought a magnifying set of glasses with an LED light no less!

They are amazing, and now I find I cannot paint without them. The only downside – aside from my kids and wife snickering at my total geekiness – is that I have had to go back and repaint a lot of the figures I had done recently. I was horrified to see how badly they were painted, but was quite happy to discover that the figures did indeed have things like bayonet scabbards and breadbags.

What are the recommended basing dimensions for 10MM?

NT rules use a fixed base size, table size, etc. altho the number of figs on bases varies, the number of hits the base can take is usually fixed at 4, so it doesn't matter how many figs are on it.

Bases are WRG standard, 40mm wide, by 20 and 40 deep for infantry and cav/guns respectively.

I'm trying to plow thru painting 6mm ACW with 16 figs a base for these 4-base rules.

I just got my Copy of NT's 19th Century Wargaming book and it's a small, hard cover. Interesting.

If you're interested, I've produced a QR for the rules. When I get back chez moi I will put it up on my wiki page.

Hi Jeffers,

Yes, I would love that. I am enjoying this NT book a lot!

Please be sure to let us know where your Wiki-page is?

I love that book. I only began buying 19th century European figures because of those rules. I game in 28mm and it is nice to be able to do a fairly large battle without spending a fortune. The rules are simple and clean and the author gives interesting explanations for why they work the way they do.

Here yer go:

link

Not sure how well the rules will appear; seems OK on my laptop but a bit mangled on the iPad. Whatever, it should give you the idea. I have made some tiny tweaks, but that's just to fit what I have already done to the Napoleonic rules.

I've also shown how I do my basing. You won't need March column or square, but I've included them to show how the system works over multiple periods. Note I never do figure removal: I like my toys to stay on the table as long as possible (difficult enough with Austrians…).

Hi Jeffers,

Looks perfect to me. Thank you for the link.