"Iraq War Poll" Topic

Bush and Saddam should play some wargames. They are too hostile because they don't play.

Its, funny. You start a poll and all the crack pots who are against that poll have to have their say in that poll. They can't help themselves. And do you notice its always the same ones.

Not me, never bothered to comment before, but you'll notice it's usually the same on both sides, rat. why bother to even bring it up, then? In fact, don't bother to answer. I'm not bothered.

I would be in favor of a poll regarding Modern Wargaming...
"Do you or would you wargame in the following periods regardsless of scale or rules" Then name every modern conflict since WWII to include Vietnam, South Africa, Rhodesia, the Gulf War etc...

I would game any conflict regardless of the nationalities involved or the atrocities commited by either or both sides.I would not participate in a game where I had to commit atrocities as a part of the game, a so called "Black Wargame". "My Lai Massacre...How many civilians can you kill?" or "The Killing Fields...how many of your fellow Cambodians can you kill in the name of Communism?". But I would game the Gulf War and actually have in 1/285 scale. I game Vietnam occasionally. I am American but Americans game the ACW and look at the atrocities, death and destruction that we visited on our own people.

IMHO an Iraq war poll is divisive given that TMP is visited by many nationalities other than American. One way to chase them away or anger them is to hold this type of poll. I am all for polls regarding wargaming real events but I am against polls for or against real events. If we are going to do an Iraq War poll why not one on..." Should the United States invade France?" or "Should the United States invade Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iran?". Personally, I think invade Iraq then France! I'm just joking, French TMP members!!!

Great points, Mike. I get angered by non americans mouthing off about America when they dont even know the reality of America and most have probably never been here. BUT on the other hand, I really can't understand the reality of their situation.

The somewhat recent developments(last ten years or so) with the worldwide web have made a big difference in how international people communicate. Without the web you would probably never share ops with foreigners. In previous wars we didnt really have this to the extent we do now so it is much easier to share opinions with people whose views differ greatly due to their background. IT is also easier to piss someone off greatly.

We all have our views of the facts, mostly based on what we are told or our life experiences with it but from one country to another they differ drastically.

I only have this to say and if no one likes it screw you.I am so sick and tired of using the U.S.A. as a whipping boy.In 2 WWars We saved certain countries If we had not gotten involved in the first one would there have been a second think about it.Everyone one has their their hand out give me money after they get oh those evil Americans what hypocrites.I think the U.N. is as useless as the league of nations was.Hell as far as the U.S. polcing the world police yourself and take care of yourself and if your country is attacked be a bio or chemical attack don't whine afterall that is just overdoing it by whining about it.I could go on about it but you really wouldn't like.A disabled veteran who knows what real war is.

I vote 'no'.

I tend to side with those who think this is not a good topic. There are plenty of forums to discuss politics; this site (as I understand it) is about miniatures and games. Those of us with opinions on the matter are not likely to be swayed by anonymously posted rants, and those who are undecided would do better to look elsewhere for education on this issue.

Outcast, Rogcollectibles...

I served in Sarajevo.

My "in-between jobs" status and double nationality --Spanish-Mexican-- allowed me to do that.

I know what war is. I am not anti-America. I have no problems with the continent. As I put it, I am not convinced about the Bush administration. And I have been many times to the U.S., recently and for somewhat extended periods of time. Enough to see things up close and personal, but from a different perspective. And I am not judging anyone. I am just commenting on my perceptions about certain issues.

As it has been pointed out, this poll issue is divisive, and prone to malinterpretation.

I know what is going on in the U.S. to a certain, well-informed degree, and I know what is happening here in Mexico and in Venezuela, first hand thanks to my living in Mexico and having a lot of Venzuelan close friends in both "camps" with whom I keep in constant communication... But heaven knows what going on in Iraq or the White House.

Again, this is not against a nation or its people, but rather my sentiments and personal opinions about its government. There is a difference... And you should be able to spot it.

So, if certain foreigners piss you off, I hope I am not one of them and please allow me to recommend you to try to get more facts together as to why they talk about the U.S. the way they do. By enforcing understanding, all parties involved benefit.

I am the first to aknowledge that your people is quick to send help over to disaster areas all over the world. I have never doubted that or allowed it to be questioned as I have seen it. Then, I have to admit that some of your governements have been notorious for their intervetionist stance in world/regional affairs. What really confuses me is why they decide to intervene in some places, and in respect to others they take so much time to make up their minds.

But please, that's just me saying I have my views on the subject, but I never tried to piss anyone off. Really.

I've seen war... I´ve played wargames for 20 years.

I know what is the one thing I want to keep on doing.

Godspeed.

WE NEED THIS FORUM if only to turn the light on the cockroaches!! Miuhul I am the HUMAN who would look you in the eye and tell you Afganistan was just even if I have to bend over to do it! Tyranny in any form (religous or physical) is Evil! We here in the USA value what is called LIBERTY see we believe (most of us) that ALL MEN all over the earth reguardless of what country you live in have inalienable rights. Now you may not know what I mean so let me clarify. We believe man has rights that can not be taken away due to the very fact of your birth you are human therefore you have rights. Governments limit those rights (even our own) or take them away completely (tyranny). Any government who systimaticly reduces a population to government property is wrong and depending on the methods used could be evil as well! SADDAM IS EVIL now does this justify the US taking action YES!! The only question is what action. If Saddam was content with dominating his own country then the action should be covert and in support of opposition forces in Iraq( allowing Iraq to settle its own problem). But alas this is not the case Saddam is not content he sees himself as the next Nasser the new leader of a Pan-Arab league set in opposition to the west and in control of the oil which he will use to blackmail the rest of the world. YES IT IS BLOOD FOR OIL and there is nothing wrong with that. Oil is like water for western economies WE MUST HAVE IT there is no maybe (this is crazy but true) for one man to hold sway over free countries because he can control the resource they need is TYRANNY and it is Evil.
Demiurg you say where are the Arab inspectors in the USA well we dont need inspectors because we are not hiding the fact we have Nukes. But just to answer your silly question We do have inspections by the Russians when we sign a treaty saying we will destroy chemical or nuclear weapons we have Russian inspectors come and verify just like we do to them. You also do not see the US useing its nukes to crowbar or in a forcefull maner If we just wanted oil we could take over Venezuela and probably make a good case for it givin the little tyrant who has taken over there.And then dare anyone to stop us because we have nukes. BUT WE DONT DO THAT!
ALL of you guys need to remember Iraq is a country living under the terms of a ceasefire agreement (WHICH IT SIGNED) THUS no-fly zones and disarmament (WMD) theses were both terms to which it agreed too to stop the last war which had UN approval (not that we need it). We dont need a new UN resolution to resume the fighting. Its time to take out the garbage and allow Iraqis to decide for themselves what type of ruler they want without the threat of being killed if they dont chose ( SADDAM= x YES: :NO. This was their "free" election). This is being done in Afganistan now and it will be done in Iraq. And maybe we can wake up the rest of the Arab world and show them you can have religous faith in a modern world (indonesia) you dont have to live in the stone age!

Hiroshima and Nagasaki 1945 atomic weapons

Vietnam 1961 1973 agent orange

Who are Americans to complain about about the manufacture of weapons of mass destruction.

pot kettle black me thinks

Pavlov

LET'S GET BACK TO ESCAPISM AND TOY SOLDIERS!

CC

Pavlov....Nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki might have been one use of WMD's but all sides used them in WWI. Agent Orange wasn't a WMD but a herbicide with unexpected side effects. The United States has had nukes and didn't use them against a variety of enemies. We didn't nuke North Vietnam for one. Saddam had made it clear that if he gets them he will use them against a variety of enemies with Israel being at the top of the list. Some countries seem to be able to hold onto their nukes without using them. I think the Soviets wouldn't have used Chemical/Biological weapons in Afganistan except they felt up against the wall. The world condemed them for their use. They lost the war anyways. But nobody has used a nuke since the US did in WWII. If we didn't then Japan wouldn't exist as a nation today, because they would have all died!

And I still say that TMP is the WRONG place for this type of discussion. I had no intent on getting into the politics until I read Pavlov's message. Then I responded. It seems he rang my bell!

My last comment then I am done with this joke of a forum.I am a disabled Viet Nam vet.No we did not belong in Viet Nam or Korea because neither place together are worth 1 drop of American blood.i do not hate my country.We have tried to help many times and people on 1 hand ask for help and the other hand is stabbing us in the back.The rest of the world isn't interested fine we should learn from them.One question if we become like you, who are you gone to point a finger at.God bless America and every American even if I don't agree the rest of you can go to hell.Now the person who started this theard is happy and I have yet to see anything about wargaming.
The Outcast

I sincerely hope that some of the people here, who will remain anonymous, do not represent common US citizen thinking. If they do, this world is as good as gone.

And no, this was not sarcasm. Some of the comments I've read here really scare the living daylight out of me. There are actually people in the world who would use nuclear weapons, even after what we've seen at Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Chernobyl?

I chose civil alternative service.

no to total war.

Gosh, so many targets of opportunity. Peace, war, the U.N., GW Bush (note the first two initials.) But no, I'm going to take the high road.

I know we had a discussion about whether we should have board for politics a few weeks (months?) ago, and this nasty little firestorm demonstrates why I thought it was a bad idea then, and it remains a bad idea. The meanness and nastiness in several of the posts, pitting hawks against peaceniks and Americans vs the rest of the world simply aren't needed on the Miniatures Page. This won't help build the web community we seek. Jeez, we can fuss at each other about GW (no not him) and painted figures. There are already countless discussion groups that allow us to air our views on world affairs or politics. A poll on Iraq here is simply a bad idea.

Kevin

Yes, The rhetoric on both sides and in between is proof enough that political discussions here (and I think in most other places) are a total waste of time. I have strong opinions on all the things mentioned, but like Kevin said, there's no point, better to take the high road. I honestly haven't heard a different idea or new slant on world politics from anyone on either side of this issue that I haven't heard before.

I'm sure there's a few among you who loudly complain about never-ending GW threads yet can't wait to delve into politics.

Interesting........

While I think that there are a few topics (very few at that) that should be "verboten," politics isn't one of them. Since we're all wargamers first, most political conversations will eventually die down JUST LIKE all the GW political threads.

Some people don't realize that democracy, freedom, and all the other good things in life aren't free and must be fought for if they're really valued.

Enjoyed reading your posts, Mike O'Brien. Wish you the best and regret that our last conversation was not so positive.

Shalom to all,
Maksim-Smelchak.

P.S.
My vote is pro-poll. It'll be posted and then it will pass just like all the other polls with odd questions.

I find it interesting that so many people are 'blaming' the UN for Saddam, and for many other evils. An interesting fact is that the USA are one of the five nations with veto right in the UN security council, and thus can forbid the UN to take an action they are opposed to. They have Veto'ed many things, such as sanctions against Israel and various other places where US interest were at stake. Similarly, France is considering using its veto right in the Iraq case - simply because the French, like the Germans, are tired of war, and would rather use diplomats than soldiers.

At any rate, I myself am against war against Iraq for the sake of war itself, for oil or as an episode of the War on Some Terrorism (which I will call it until the CIA headquarters gets bombed). It looks to me more like that GWB declared war on an enemy that refuses to go to battle on his terms, so he's looking to go to war against one who will.

-A.

the end of nato ,franco-german alliance.some cool future what if's.

TALK ABOUT MINIS, BITCH ABOUT MINS, TALK ABOUT RULES, BITCH ABOUT RULES- LEAVE POLITICS ALONE.

CC

CommanderCarnage 03 Feb 2003 13:51:10
TALK ABOUT MINIS, BITCH ABOUT MINS, TALK ABOUT RULES, BITCH ABOUT RULES- LEAVE POLITICS ALONE.

---------------------------------------------------------
I agree 100% give it a break people...

Rick

alrighty then.

first, i actually think the poll would be a good idea.
this is a group that on the whole is familiar with history and it's consequences. i would be interested in it's conclusions.

second, i as an american, have taken offence at several of the things said about us, our policies, etc.
however, as an american, i also think those people had the right to post them and get there feelings off their chest
just as i would if i pointed out that if hiroshima and nagasaki were not bombed then japan would still be pulling themselves out the ashes of our invasion and would most likely be yet another soviet maritime province( see, more scenario ideas)because we would have never bothered to rebuild it or defend it if threatened.

anyway,

i thought the "painted/non-painted" posts were vitriolic.

still, every one is entitled to their say so.
that is why guys died at guadalcanal, normandy, bastogne
the samar strait, chosin , hue and countless other places.

not so we could get kick-ass electronics or bmw suv's.

jeez, i went all over the road on this one.

my apologies.

pat

I have to agree with you Mike this is not the place for this discussion, and I don’t believe it is a topic that should be discussed on this forum, buuuut in response.

All sides did not use weapons of mass destruction during ww1 only Britain and Germany and even with the destructive nature of gas attacks during the ww1 dispersal technology and the potency of the gasses used is nowhere near as potent as the toxic gas and nerve agents that have been developed by America and Britain and I hasten to add possibly Iraq (I use the word possibly since no “smoking gun” has been found as yet).

As for agent Orange,well yes it is a herbicide but go check how many vets have died due to exposure to AO let alone the civilian population who were exposed to this herbicide.

And I’m glad my little bit motivated someone to respond.

Pavlov

I think this has been a good discussion. I use the word 'has', since the thread is coming to an end, as most flaming debates quickly do. I would like the Editor to start a forum for discussion of current events. We already have ones for sports and TV, which are much further from wargaming than current issues.

I would much rather discuss and debate issues with people I know to be intelligent and prone to thinking - wargamers, that is(? :) in a very civilized forum where netiquette and proper behavior is adhered to (TMP, that is) than heading for a troll-filled, more public forum. The people here are smart enough to apologize for improper behavior and all in all this is the best forum I've ever been to. Those who call the above "evil, vitriolic and furious" have obviously never visited the Games Workshop forums, for example.

Discussion leads to insight, as ultimately does debate.
Lack of insight leads to fear of the unknown and we all know what fear leads to :)

So, to cut the chitchat: How about a new forum? Those who dislike discussing politics/current issues/things not directly linked to wargaming could very easily just skip reading it.

Just my 2 cents (EUR)

This is fine, so far... I see much worse on cable news every night nad 90% of the time the commentators smile and go their separate ways! So what if a few nationalistic remarks are fired off, its better than bullets!

I too would rather discuss these issues here than with a bunch of who-knows-what that send viruses to people they disagree with!

BTW the GW site is awful, after an incident with someone so filled with hate that it scared me I decided they were an awful place and not worth the 5 minutes spent on it. I believe they are better now but for me too little, too late!

As the creator of this forum I would like to say thanks to all those who took the time to post a message. The general reason why I posted this question was the previous night we had a discussion about this topic at my local wargaming club. That discussion turned into a very heated debate as this forum did. The sides were 50/50. To those that say there are other sites to visit if you want to talk about his type of thing, I say no. I want to know the views of my peers, that is you.

Ok That's it...

I'm apalled at what I'm reading here. A lot of people actually support a war against Iraq. And why? Because Saddam Hussein is an evil man???!!!! Because he is a dictator???!!!!

Why don't you all wake up and smell the coffee.

I understand that most people on this site are American (I'm not) and that they view global events in a different way since Sept. 11 but that is no reason to go and eliminate everyone who doesn't "play ball" with the U.S.

I don't think that the U.S has any right tromping around the world playing global Cop (more like Global Bully) and tell the rest of the world what's good and what's bad for it.

Not everyone sees things the way the U.S sees them you know. Not everyone has "American Values". People have the right to believe in their own values.

I've grown sick and tired of listening that the United States are fighting the good war against terrorism and fight to defend freedom and liberty all over the world.

That is B@[&*t. Maybe a very long time ago that was the case but not any more.

The truth is that the U.S behaves like any other very powerful Nation and tries to grab all the power and resources of the planet no matter the cost and uses pretexts to justify its actions in the face of the rest of the world and the American People.

Has everyone forgotten the "bad" things the United States have done?

What about putting Pinochet into power in Chile?
What about Bombing Yugoslavia and the Chinese Embassy?
The train full of civilians?
What about the Bay of Pigs?
What about supporting Turkey in its genocide against the Kurds?
What about threatening to use Nuclear Weapons in what is supposed to be the Post Nuclear Era?
What about the coup attempted against the Venezuelan President a few months back? You think the U.S had nothing to do with that? I also believe that what we're seeing today in Venezuela has something to do with the U.S.
(By the way Rogcollectibles said: "As far as the oil issue, if thats all the USA wanted we would be occupying Venezuela right now". Well the U.S didn't occupy Venezuela but they did organize a nice little coup and tried to put their very own puppet into power didn't they.)

I'm not going to mention other "bad" things but there are a lot. Just open a history book and you'll see.

Somewhere on this post I read that Turkey is actually considered a democratic country in the Islamic world. Where on Earth did you get that impression?

Did you know that Turkey is actually ruled by its own security council which is above the government and has the last word in everything? Do you know who sits at this council? Well it's the military. Doesn't that remind you of a Dictatorship? What about the right of freedom of speech in that country? Do you know about the "Political Prisoners" of Turkey? They're in jail because they were considered pro-Kurd in their SPEECHES. And guess who supports Turkey as far as military equipment and money is concerned. The United States.

So don't go around saying that the U.S is fighting to uphold peace and liberty.

There is only one word I'll say that defeats any argument.

Henry Kissinger.

If the U.S had a man like that in its government, then no one can say a single word about freedom, liberty and democracy.

This war will be about oil. Nothing more nothing less.

The next war will be about some other U.S interest. Nobody cares about who is dictator and who's the democrat. None care about the violation of human rights or freedom or liberty.

It's all about POWER.

Well that's it for now. I hope Bill does not delete this. This is my opinion of how I see things. There are a lot of other matters I could bring up but just mentioning them would keep me up all night. I just wish people didn't accept everything they heard from TV or read in newspapers at face value and use their own brains and think for themselves.

Logan

Let me place my vote as "110% against picking a fight with north korea"

As I read and learn, one of the things that usually strikes me about historical events, is the inability of the masses at the time to get enough information to make well informed decisions, opinions, etc. about a given issue.

Given that telecommunications are what they are, we the masses are in the best position that the masses have ever been in, but I still doubt that any of us are close enough to first hand sources to come to well informed conclusions about this issue.

The information that we currently receive is still mostly superficial information easily obtained by the media, some more in depth information is released to us, but through channels controlled by parties having a vested interest. Thus the most enlightened information is still propagandized. Not necessarily lies, but tainted none the less.

The various world leaders will attempt to play our prejudices and pre-conceptions into a view that supports their objectives, and the masses for the most part will simply get to toil and/or die in an effort to help the world leaders reach those objectives.

I'm an American. Because many of our gaming forums often focus on contemporary political issues, I am often made aware of my views, beliefs, values, by those outside of the United States. The unfortunate thing is that these perceptions of me, the stereotypical American, are usually so far off the mark that it is beyond funny (or sad). I suspect that my view of many of those outside of the United States is equally off the mark. The wonderful thing about forums like this is that they continuously make me aware that I never am able to see anything close to a complete "Big Picture".

From what I can gather, the looming war in Iraq is not simply about weapons of mass destruction, nor oppression of Iraqis of violation of their human rights; its not just about UN control or US global domination; its not just about oil, revenge, or political philosophy. Nothing is as simple as it might seem, thus all of these issues, and many more, no doubt hidden to us, (I suspect that there aren't any world leaders here(though I was once the emperor of Montana in a game that we played))make up the "big picture".

If I were a world leader, my approach would be to find the solution that resulted in the least suffering by the fewest people. I don't have nearly enough information to decide what that is, and am grateful that I do not have to decide such things.

Brian

Logan Grimmar
Of course its about power, since the fall of soviet Russia there has been no effective counter-balance to the USA`s bully tactics, they feel (they being Dubya and his cronies) that they can do whatever, wherever and no-one can raise their voice in protest

It is not America`s world, although I think that is where we are heading - a benevolent dictatorship- if we survive WW3 of course

I'm apalled at what I'm reading here. A lot of people actually support a war against Iraq. And why? Because Saddam Hussein is an evil man???!!!! Because he is a dictator???!!!!

*NJH: No. The primary reason is weapons of mass desrtuction and the very real possibility SH would sell them to be used on American civilians.

Why don't you all wake up and smell the coffee.

NJH: That would be the smell of burning rotting flesh, if SH is permitted to sell WMD.

I understand that most people on this site are American (I'm not) and that they view global events in a different way since Sept. 11 but that is no reason to go and eliminate everyone who doesn't "play ball" with the U.S.

*NJH: Why not? That's exactly what the terrorists are doing. Mercy to the merciful, but none to those without mercy themselves.

I don't think that the U.S has any right tromping around the world playing global Cop (more like Global Bully) and tell the rest of the world what's good and what's bad for it.

*NJH: I absolutely, totally agree. I think the US should pull back all their troops from everywhere. Quite frankly I'm tired of watching American lives sacrificed for an ungrateful planet full of twits with memories that can't reach beyond the previous decade. Everyone should pull their own weight.

Not everyone sees things the way the U.S sees them you know. Not everyone has "American Values". People have the right to believe in their own values.

*NJH: Yes, absolutely. And, they can bloody well starve to death or die from some wretched disease with those values. However, if you want to dine on the devil's food, be vacinated with the devil's medicine, or hide behind the might of the devil's armed forces then you better sing close harmony when the devil is in the studio. People have a right to their value systems, but it was God that gave humankind free will, not the USA. Exercise your values with impunity and the US will exercise its freedom Not to subsidize those values. There is no free lunch.

I've grown sick and tired of listening that the United States are fighting the good war against terrorism and fight to defend freedom and liberty all over the world.

*NJH: Me too. The US should help those who ask for it and the rest can suffer.

That is B@[&*t. Maybe a very long time ago that was the case but not any more.

*NJH: A long time ago???? The USA is only 225+ years old. Oh, you must mean back in the 20th Century. The old "That was then, this is now," philosophy. For many countries a long time ago is hundreds of years, the US is hardly old enough to have a "long time ago."

The truth is that the U.S behaves like any other very powerful Nation and tries to grab all the power and resources of the planet no matter the cost and uses pretexts to justify its actions in the face of the rest of the world and the American People.

*NJH: So the US behaves as other nations have and do. Then why criticize the US for being like all the others?

Has everyone forgotten the "bad" things the United States have done?

What about putting Pinochet into power in Chile? What about Bombing Yugoslavia and the Chinese Embassy? The train full of civilians? What about the Bay of Pigs? What about supporting Turkey in its genocide against the Kurds? What about threatening to use Nuclear Weapons in what is supposed to be the Post Nuclear Era? What about the coup attempted against the Venezuelan President a few months back? You think the U.S had nothing to do with that? I also believe that what we're seeing today in Venezuela has something to do with the U.S. (By the way Rogcollectibles said: "As far as the oil issue, if thats all the USA wanted we would be occupying Venezuela right now". Well the U.S didn't occupy Venezuela but they did organize a nice little coup and tried to put their very own puppet into power didn't they.) I'm not going to mention other "bad" things but there are a lot. Just open a history book and you'll see.

*NJH: A very neat list. However, for any list you could compile for the US, I can double or triple the length for any other major power of history. Humans live such short lives that we cannot see beyond them for the consequences of our actions or inactions. That which you label "bad" may, in the future 100 or 200 years from now, actually turn out to be the proper policy or correct action.

Somewhere on this post I read that Turkey is actually considered a democratic country in the Islamic world. Where on Earth did you get that impression? Did you know that Turkey is actually ruled by its own security council which is above the government and has the last word in everything? Do you know who sits at this council? Well it's the military. Doesn't that remind you of a Dictatorship? What about the right of freedom of speech in that country? Do you know about the "Political Prisoners" of Turkey? They're in jail because they were considered pro-Kurd in their SPEECHES. And guess who supports Turkey as far as military equipment and money is concerned. The United States.

*NJH: The US also supports Britain despite problems in Northern Ireland. The US also supports Spain despite problems with the Basque community. The US supports Canada despite Quebec. The US supports many countries around the world despite the peculiar problems with liberty, freedom, and democracy that each country may have.

So don't go around saying that the U.S is fighting to uphold peace and liberty.

*NJH: The US is fighting to protect its citizens and assure the safety of its citizens. Half the world wants to kill large numbers of US citizens because of the raw deal they get from their own government, the other half ("friends" of the US) are perfectly willing to place those same US citizen lives at risk in the interests of "peace in our time." Some countries calculate, rather coldly, that by keeping the focus of the world's terrorists on Israel and the US they can escape attacks themselves. Real Politik, buy domestic peace and tranquility with the lives of your friends. I can understand that policy.

There is only one word I'll say that defeats any argument.

Henry Kissinger.

If the U.S had a man like that in its government, then no one can say a single word about freedom, liberty and democracy.

*NJH: George III, Attila, Hitler, Napoleon, Robespierre, Il Duce, Vichy, Amin, Kmer Rouge, Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Rhodes, Nasser, Assad, Romanovs, Hapsburgs, Wilhelm, Bismarck, Phillip II, Henry VIII, and et al. I really could go on with a much longer list of far more important people who were far more inimical to freedom, liberty, and democracy. Any historian of meager talents could do the same. I really don't understand choosing Kissinger as the focus of your anger, he is a minor footnote in American history, unless you believe Kissinger's own press.

This war will be about oil. Nothing more nothing less.

*NJH: And Britain fought the First Opium War and the Second Opium War about what? Why exactly did France hold onto Vietnam and Algeria? Why has Russia refused to return the Islands to Japan? Why doesn't Japan release Okinawa? Why did China invade Tibet? Why all the fighting over Khasmir? Why the Iran/Iraq war? I could provide thousands of other whys with answers far more whimsical than oil. Oil has the merit of being essential to Western Civilization. Starving to death tens of thousands of Irish because they had the audacity to be alive on the land of their ancestors is far more damning and frivilous. I'm not quite convinced that it's all about oil, but even if it were, at least I can readily understand that reason.

The next war will be about some other U.S interest. Nobody cares about who is dictator and who's the democrat. None care about the violation of human rights or freedom or liberty.

It's all about POWER.

*NJH: Yes, the US has it, the rest of the world doesn't. Ces't la vie!

Well that's it for now. I hope Bill does not delete this. This is my opinion of how I see things. There are a lot of other matters I could bring up but just mentioning them would keep me up all night. I just wish people didn't accept everything they heard from TV or read in newspapers at face value and use their own brains and think for themselves.

*NJH: Exactly my lament and sentiments also.

Cheers

I believe the US government has a duty to its citizens to protect them from acts of terrorism. 9/11 has awakened the world to the destructive possibilities of terror with the gloves off.3,000 dead could be 30,000 dead in a chemical attack or 300,000 or 3,000,000 dead in a nuclear attack.

These categories of weapons must be kept out of terrorists hands, or out of the hands of a dictator or state who might use them or pass them on to terrorists. I don't doubt that Al Quaeda would look for an opportunity to use these weapons if they came by them, and that the US would be the favoured target.

How does this link with Iraq? That's my problem. I don't see a strong likelihood of SH passing on these weapons when he develops them. Yes he has a reputation for regional aggrandizement, but an equally strong reputation for self preservation. I think that if he has aces he'll hold them.

So to me it appears that the US will topple SH and defeat Iraq, and very likely kill a few hundred thousand people in order to prevent the possibility that if SH has or ever gets wmd AND passes them on to terrorists, then those terrorists stand a chance of deploying and using such weapons in the US.

To me this is the immoral part.Iraqis will certainly die like flies now to prevent Americans from maybe,just possibly, at some unknown point in the future, dying like flies. As a foreign policy this is capital P Prudence not unrelated to capital P Paranoia.

The dumb part? What else is US foreign policy doing apart from this prudent/paranoid path? The administration has been utterly unreflective as to why the US attracts the terror."They hate our freedoms", gimme a break. Might I suggest that a genuine policy to solve the Israel/Palestine problem would not only be a great good but has the potential more than any other single initiative to undercut all the rhetoric and recruiting of alQuaeda/Bin Laden and make the US and its citizens much much safer.

I'm not an American. The death of 1/2million Iraqis and the death of 1/2million Americans are equally terrible things for me to contemplate. I don't blame America for getting tougher, but why can't America get smarter as well.

Luke