"Horrifying Facts About The Founding Fathers..." Topic

….They Purposely Cut Out Of History Books.

"Everyone grows up learning about George Washington's apple tree and Benjamin Franklin's kite-and-the-key experiment. It turns out that a lot of the things "everyone knows" about our Founding Fathers are either slightly or completely wrong, and the things most people don't know are actually terrifying. There are a lot of strange and shocking details about the Founding Fathers that were probably left out of your history textbooks on purpose.

Who were the Founding Fathers? They were some of most influential people in American history, and almost all of them were way more drunk and morally questionable than most people can remember. And while we often look back at our American Revolution with rose colored glasses, the truth is these men weren't always so noble. It's not easy creating a nation from scratch, and nothing proves it quite like the dark American history surrounding these Founding Fathers…."
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Amicalement
Armand

And yet they created a superb constitutional republic that has defied repeated and constant attempts to overthrow it. But let's throw it all out because they didn't live up to today's "standards" (according to some views on other, very political, websites… <rolls eyes> )

What is so horrifying about a Founding Father living in the woods for possibly a year to avoid capture by the British???

And it looks like the physician used the standard treatments at the time. Now if he had had a time machine to get a heads up on the latest and best…

Wouldn't load past the first three so I may try again later.

I do find it interesting how some try to disparage such great men, who've created the most successful, generous, and prosperous nation, and open society on the planet.

First off, I do think that article is utter rubbish and I have no idea how on earth it is relevant to wargaming.

But, I do have to ask, do you not think that most counties see themselves as successful, generous, prosperous and open? Just one example of how one could consider things slightly differently would be how European nations have less wealth inequality, free health care for all, more social welfare programmes to assist those who fall in hard times, less inequality based on the colour of your skin?

I like The US, but the idea that you are somehow utterly unique In your magnificence does tend to grate on those from other countries.

Well said Northern Monkey. I would add, however, that I do have the impression that a lot more of our American cousins are now questioning whether the USA has a monopoly on all social, financial and political wisdom.

There is no "free" healthcare anywhere.

Northern Monkey +1

Private Shaf- -4 for irrelevance to the thread.

Well the piece is a load of drivel: They were men of their time and they acted like it.

Since NM brought up health care PS's comment is justified and correct.

It's absolutely repugnant that the founding fathers were men of their times. Shouldn't they have been able to see what we today consider "obviously wrong?" Surely they could have lived up to our standards. Certainly, if someone from 2140 looked back at how we live and conduct our affairs they would find anything "horrifying" and would share all our mores. At least today only pleasant people of solid moral character make it to the top of our hierarchies!

The voice of this article suggests that it was written by a very young person, and not one trained in critical writing. Worse, on visiting that web page I had to click away *three* intrusive windows before I saw the content, and that's with adblockers. I'm sure ranker.com doesn't care but I won't be back. Ugh.

Why didn't they chop down a bunch of trees and build a safe space???

"But, I do have to ask, do you not think that most counties see themselves as successful, generous, prosperous and open?" Completely agree.

But, Northern Monkey – don't believe everything you hear coming out of the politically correct, decidedly left wing American press and so-called 'progressive' politicians whose main goal is to criticize and bring down America by often denigrating the past.

And I will give myself a -1 for continuing a conversation that has nothing to do with miniature wargaming.

"And I will give myself a -1 for continuing a conversation that has nothing to do with miniature wargaming."
But in realizing your mistake, you gain one free re-roll ( can not be used with any other re-roll). There, now this thread is about wargaming. :)

Not horrified by any of it except the slavery piece and that's not exactly a new revelation.

My first history professor in University told us, " You can't judge people from the past by today's standards and morals." A thought that has always stuck with me. The founders of the United States, created a unique, for it's time, form of government combining several types of democratic ideas. The Constitution has since grown and changed with the times; freeing slaves, voting rights etc.
I still count America as one of the 'good guys'. Much like the other 'real' democracies. On this day in particular, VE Day, we should all be grateful of their participation in WWII, ridding the world of a terrible scourge, Nazism.

My two cents as a friendly northern neighbour.

JMcCarroll – Nicely played :-)

"There is no "free" healthcare anywhere…."

For the moment… University and Healthcare are free in Argentina….

Amicalement
Armand

"There is no "free" healthcare anywhere…."

Someone has to pay for the doctors and hospitals.
Nothing is free!

In a revolution hiding from your enemies is the smartest way to go
Though a novel character Patrick O'Brien's doctor bleeds his patients 35 years after Benjamin Rush
Years after the Napoleonic wars false teeth were known as Waterloo teeth.

Each of my sons had his appendix removed (in the magnificent new Royal Childrens Hospital). I spent eight nights in hospital when I had septacemia. All free to us if not the taxpayers in general.

On the other theme above, you have to wonder what impact the media mania for disclosure of private matters has had on the quality of people elected to office. In Oz, at least they mainly stay quiet on sexual indiscretions until they become relevant for other reasons, such as expenses rorts.

Although this conversation has little to do with wargaming, I do find it interesting and would make just two quick points. First, if you argue that it is unfair to judge historical actors by today's standards, that is fine, but then you should be consistent, which means that you should also not condemn the Romans, for instance, for sentencing Jesus to death on a charge of sedition, or shudder at ancient Greek sexual practices, or at the medieval Mongols for… being medieval Mongols.

Second, it's not as if we can appeal to some universal historically appropriate standard of behavior. By the latter half of the 18th-C., many people did find owning slaves objectionable, many thought that using slaves as sex objects was reprehensible, and so it seems fair to criticize the occasional Founding Father for doing so. Jefferson, certainly, thought about the moral implications of slavery and so to excuse him as simply a creature of his time seems disingenuous to say the least.

Agree, though, that the article that started this thread is just stupid.

Tango, seriously you have a PhD and think these things are free? Of course someone pays the doctors, teachers, and nurses, equipment and supply makers, and publishers.

There is nothing free in this world. Everything has a cost even your mothers love. There is only one thing that is free and its not of this kingdom.

Healthcare, free at point of service, paid for with communal funds.

Its that point of communal funds thats the rub.

Not for us communists

Perhaps some of the communal funds could go into an apostrophe awareness programme.

Oh, sure. Just shake the magic money tree (smiley winky face).

"don't believe everything you hear coming out of the politically correct, decidedly left wing American press and so-called 'progressive' politicians whose main goal is to criticize and bring down America by often denigrating the past."

What an excellent straw man you have built. Would you prefer Infowars?

I see some just don't like the truth.

Of course, there are a lot of nice, wealthy, and friendly nations around the world, but as stated in my original posting, "I do find it interesting how some try to disparage such great men, who've created the most successful, generous, and prosperous nation, and open society on the planet".

Here are the facts to back that up:

Projected GDP (Real GDP still doesn't change this – the USA wins hands down):

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Generosity in Total Dollars Given:

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Inventions:

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Open society – Freedom of Speech and Religion, and Most Immigrants (legal) accepted annually:

In the United States, freedom of expression is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, and by precedents set in various legal cases. There are very few restrictions on "freedom of speech" and those that try to impose them usually lose in the US Supreme Court.

America accepts more than 1 million immigrants into the country annually (even more if you count all the illegals flowing over the border):

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Didn't add in World Power, but by many measures, the USA's military might is unchallenged in most categories:

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A lot of our Founding Fathers only got involved with the Revolution because they thought they would replace the British aristocracy here. Note: I see that most White men couldnt vote until the late 1820s at the earliest.

Now, it all backfired on some of them and the Revolution got away from the Founders to their collective detriment but let's not pretend you cant criticize these men without being a traitor, or part of the "Liberal Media"; which is apparently French for being able to think, read and write as well as use other tools of the devil.

Well, MiniP, you've made a rather gross exaggeration of the revolutionary period. While it is true that Hamilton and the Federalist Party did believe in and advocate for rule by the elite, they were ultimately unsuccessful. They lost out to the Jeffersonian Republicans and basically ceased to exist after the War of 1812. However, Hamilton and others did great service to the new country by among other things, writing the Federalist Papers and helping to get our Constitution approved; a long-lived document still in use today. I don't think George Washington had any desire to rule like the British aristocracy and he easily could have done just that. So I don't think the Revolution got away from anyone – it was period of growth, transition and most importantly, compromise.

Personally, I like to read both the conservative and liberal media and draw my own conclusions, though I must admit what I really want is objective reporting. So, I think your French might not be as good as you think it is.