"Battle of Guinegate, 1479 - Order of Battle?" Topic

Does anyone knows a more or less reliable OOB for the battle of Guinegate? I'm specially interested in the composition of Maximilian's army.

Not an actual OOB, but I discussed some of the numbers for Max at link

I covered the battle in my book.
Great Battles of History for DBA 3.
Available here…
link

Joe Collins

Interesting battle…fairly well covered by two German historians writing in the late 19th century. You can find their papers on the internet…they have not been translated.

Joe Collins

Delbrück claims some 11000 Flemish infantry, equipped and fighting in the Swiss style in two large units in the center, one of which was joined by Maximilian.

Afaik this would be the only major battle that Maximilian fought with mainly Flemish soldiers, who probably went for home after the battle (as Maximilian could not exploit his victory). Consequently he later attempted to create an army loyal to him, merging German, Burgundian and Swiss traditions into the Landsknechts over the next 7 years.

@Gurkan
I have to disagree with the assumption in your assumption that the Burgundian army is not "German" until 1506, though I agree for Guinegate. During the 80ies the infantry went from Flemish to a Swiss/German core open for international members, which became more German with the Swiss starting to part from the Empire (which would culminate into the war of 1499). The knights contained a large portion of German nobles seeking the glory of the young duke and heirs court. When Maximilian was taken hostage in Brugge 1488 an official Reichsheer was raised to wage war, and Albrecht, Duke of Saxony, led the army of Burgund for the next decade for Maximilian. Sorry for hijacking this thread, though :-)

This is very interesting, I'm making plans for the War of Burgundian Succession myself – not specifically Guinegate, but rather just any sort of conflict between the French and the Burgundians/Flemish/Habsburgs through the 1470s and 1480s.

I have wondered about the remnants of Charles the Bold's army. Would elements of Maximilian's forces still be recognisable as such?

What about flags? Burgundian crosses all round do you think?

The relationship between the Low Countries and the German armies does get more complex, true, especially once Max has become King of the Romans; but at least in army list terms (the context of the article) I think they are better kept distinct, if only because mediaeval German army lists are always too complicated and the more I could take out of the DBM/MM German list the better. The "official Reichsheer" of 1488 would be a separate German army, though, not Netherlandish. And of course Max confuses things for us by raising a Burgundian Guard cavalry unit to serve along with his German army once he is Emperor…

Delbrueck's 11,000 Flemish pike presumably comes from Molinet; Monstrelet and Commynes cite higher figures, but may be including other infantry as well. I didn't find any Flemish or German chroniclers who had anything much to say, though there are probably some out there.

Based on Richert and Klaje Maximilian fielded the 11000 flemish foot mentioned by Puster, 500 English archers, 3000 other missile troops and 825 'lances' (I.e 825 men-at-arms, 825 coustiliers, 1650 mtd Archers and 825 foot archers at full strenght based on GurKhans link)It is unclear if the Ordonnance archers were counted into the 3000 missile troops or not.

The French were 1500 lances of the Ordonnance companies, ie 1500 Gendarmes, 1500 Coustilliers and 3000 Archers at paper strenght. The Ordonnance Archers still dismounted to fight bow in hand and are described fighting on foot when they captured Maximilians artillery. There were also at least 8000 "Francs Archers" who despite their name were not necissarily archers but could rather be armed in one of four ways (crossbow, longbow, handgonne or pike IIRC) There were also additional troops who had been gathered to strenghten the French army but no details are provided about them.

Well, distinct this army certainly was. The problem is more that a typical "German" list already simplifies a lot. The armies raised to assault Hannover in 1490 probably bears no resemblance to that led vs. the Hungarians by Maximilian.

So a specific list is fine. The "Reichsheer" of 88 was dissolved after the goal – to free Maximilian – was achieved, but many units, especially its leader, remained in service of Maximilian until the end of the conflict, as his main force. On the other hand, Burgundian units (especially Gensdarmes) where used by Maximilian for his own imperial campaigns on occasion.

The 11k infantry only number the Flemish infantry in Swiss style. I am not sure how many others there were, but numbers go from 16 to 27k, and usually agree that the Flemish army outnumbered the French. An unknown eye witness reports some 15000 Archers on the French side, but we know how reliable such numbers are…

Regarding the "remnants" of Charles army I read somewhere (sorry, exact source is missing from memory right now) that many ordonnance units continued to exist as garrisons and were involved in the border clashes with France. They would not form the core of the new dukal force, though. (As its from memory, I am NOT sure how true that is without checking).

Sablon du Corail's thesis – "L'armée, le Prince et ses sujets : le financement de la guerre aux Pays-Bas bourguignons aprčs la mort de Charles Le Téméraire, 1477-1482" – which describes the raising of the new compagnies d'ordonnance in 1477, is now at link – the link given in my old TNE page doesn't work any more.

Sablon du Corail mentions 800 lances of the new compagnies d'ordonnance at Guinegate – Richert's 825 lances again comes from Molinet's chronicle, and I'm not entirely clear why S d C goes for the slightly lower number.

At Google Books – link – you can get Baron Guillaume's 1873 "Histoire des bandes d'ordonnance des Pays-Bas"; he suggests there were no infantry in the new lances, whereas S d C says that the 1477 ordonnance called for one foot-archer per lance but they gradually dropped out of use.

Good one. If I read this correct (I have to rely on translaters for French, alas – being a terrible student in that regard) these were raised post Charles death, and thus go along with my source that the old army of Charles was not used at Guinegate or in other army operations of Maximilian, fighting the war rather where they were stationed.

Obviously the logistics of raising lances still worked, though, so that they Maria could form new ones at need – this had probably much to do with the reliability of the Burgundian court regarding payments.
If the typical size of a lance is set at 5, these 800 lances would mean some 4000 cavalry. Add archers and other units (the source names 18-20k infantry, mainly pike), and you come to the some 20-25k that are sometimes given for the strength of the Burgundian army.

With the strength of the (total?) french army given at 3000 lances (~15k) and 8-12.000 "french archers" he would have a superiority in cavalry (which also reflects in the battle) and inferiority in total numbers and infantry.

I am sure I missed many points. Any chance that there is a translation for that text available?

BTW: Given the tradition of creating a law or written order, an "ordonannce", regarding the creation of units I really wonder wether there is an "ordonnance" of Maximilian regarding the formation of his "new" infantry that would evolve into the Landsknechts. This would have to be between 1479 and 1487, most likely not long after Maries death in 1482 or 1483.

I went blank with sources available in German or English, but as I expect the original to be in French I am not willing to give up on that idea yet.

Oh, and if Don Sebastian or anyone else does get round to modelling Max's army, I was reminded of Andreas' figures on this page – link –

… a chronicle passage* that has Flemings in green-and-white, Brabanters in red-and-white, and Hollanders and Zeelanders in blue-and-white uniforms. The particular distribution of the colours is based on aesthetical concerns since the chronicler gave no further details.

* Specifically, from the Dit sijn de wonderlijcke oorloghen van den doorluchtighen hoochgheborenen prince, Keyser Maximiliaen. Hoe hij eerst int landt quam. Ende hoe hij vrou Marien troude., available in modern German translation by Elke Maria Renner as Die Abenteuerlichen Kriegszüge Kaiser Maximilians zwischen 1477 und 1482.

Now at Guinegatte most of the infantry were IIRC Flemings and Brabanters, the other provinces making minimal contributions; but if you painted the "two large units" of pike one in Flemish green-and-white and the other in Brabanter red-and-white, that might be both attractive and plausible. I'd go for mi-parti jackets, myself.

To answer Charlie earlier on flags, period illustrations like link do suggest Burgundian crosses. But at link is a surviving Ghent militia flag painted c.1481; a bit too late for this battle, but it shows the kind of flag that individual cities' infantry contingents would probably have carried.

available in modern German translation by Elke Maria Renner as Die Abenteuerlichen Kriegszüge Kaiser Maximilians zwischen 1477 und 1482

Nice catch, as I have that one directly in front of me on my table :-)

I really would love to see a good army of that period on the table. It seems to me that this one and a half decade, from 1477 to 1493, in Burgund impress their pattern upon the later European history, with both the Valois and Habsburger forming their rivalry for the centuries to come. Both the French army that invaded Italy later and the German Landsknechts develop right here. What a pity that Maria died. The "what ifs" here are really intriguing…

Wow this is a great Thread!

I'm actually planning an army for this period and conflict.

Currently it's all 'generic' European stuff, with made-up heraldry for the commanders, to represent small-scale 'private wars' somewhere within the Holy Roman Empire.

My plan is to later adapt it to various European conflicts in the late 15th century, and the first on the list is what we are talking about here. My units don't have uniforms or liveries, so most of the existing stuff will be easily aligned to Maximilian just with some new flags.

I'm thinking Maximilian's forces will have a bit of everything…
- Heavy cavalry, both the new Ordonnance companies we are discussing here and assorted German/Hapsburg/Imperial/mercenary men-at-arms.
- Pikemen, either Flemish for the early years of the conflict or German and Swiss mercenaries for the later years.
- Longbowmen, both Burgundian and English.
- Other assorted infantry: crossbowmen, handgunners, polearm troops.

Though I'm still learning about the subject myself, and this thread has been very informative so far.

Do we know if either Maximilian or France would have Italian mercenaries in their forces – light cavalry, mounted crossbowmen, and light infantry? I've got the models, but which side would use them?

It is a good fight. Woods and hills on either side of the battlefield had snow effect. The fight usually comes down to Max trying to close with his Pike against the Frank archers. A task easier said than done. Max's standard bearer took an arrow through the calf… armor and all. If the Pikes close…then the French center will broken That actually is a big " if".

Fighting it with DBA I have had Max down to 1 element breaking at least 3 times before his command engaged the Frsnc Archers. The battle goes about 75% to the Burgundians because of the terrain. The French are unable to spread out enough to make full use of their men at arms.

A Google Earth drive through of the battlefield is helpful.

Joe Collins

There were several Italian units in the army of Charles, but I have not heard of Maximilian (or the French, for that) hiring them – which does in no way mean there were none.

My plan is to later adapt it to various European conflicts

Please take a sharp look to the East, with the Hungarians under Corvinus having one of the strongest armies of the period. A considerable amount of that was pointed at the Empire, and a major reason why Maximilans support from his father was more lacking a bit. In 1490 the crisis after his death prevented Maximilan from claiming his second bride, Anna of Britanny, and enabled the French king to snatch her (and Britanny) for France.
The Hungarian army was pretty unique, with a very small core of Gensdarmes from its nobility, a large and professional infantry force and a large light cavalry force.

For what it's worth. I had a rule book from the 80's or early 90's for 25mm figs with one or two scenarios in it. 'Verlorene Haufe'. One was Guinegate. Dont know where it got to.