"The worst Salute ever ?" Topic

Phillip mate , lm happy there is a few birds attending ( from 15 in 2010 to 30 on the weekend ) , a couple of cross dressers but that don't make a quality show . Good to see a few more under 30s .
My mates don't give a monkeys about a morale crusade but want to be inspired , challenged , blown away .
Sadly this is something that needs addressing .

There were a lot of mainland european traders missing as well as a lot of punters from across the Dover strait. Might be the insecure feeling of a looming Brexit.
At least a few weeks back it looked like Brexit would be done a week before Salute. As a trader has to plan far in advance many might have missed out because of this malady ?

Only half of the Spanish crowd attended , they said that many felt the show had declined and decided the expense didn't warrant the trip over anymore .Nothing to do with Brexit , there dosh goes a lot further.

Wow, some quality sexism and transphobia from sid there. I wonder why there's such a lack of diversity at shows….

Well Annie, judging by his handle, Sid is a bit of a 70s throwback.

Now I enjoy a Carry On film as much as the next man. But they are products of their time and they don't make 'em anymore, do they!

Your stand looked well busy on Saturday, by the way. Hope you had a good day?

Thanks Cerdic, it was the best sort of chaos! I'll be typing up my own review, possibly tonight. Still utterly sleepy, but super charged with how positive it felt around our stand. I'm extra proud of the colouring in table!

Dear bad squid games, that's below the belt and unfair .

I'm in the building game and employ the League of Nations . I don't give a fart in a khazi where you come from . If you're good then the jobs your .
We have 2 Polish lads that work twice as hard as the average young Brit , through experience we love anyone who gets stuck in . I don't know the correct terms , l was kicked out of school at 15 and got in into boxing but got nowhere . We've got Janis a Latvian kitchen fitter with us whos going through the change and know is lnga, Diversity ain't a problem in my manor.
I'm a honest geezer that may be rough around the edges according to my old girl , loves footy , ladies , a few pints , but would stand up for anyone bullied and l have .

Annie, I think your comment was also unfair. Did you miss Sid's previous quote?:

" Hopefully the 5000 (plus or minus few 100) that come through the every year will continue to be more diverse in age, gender and what they play."

Of course "birds" is a throwback term.

Getting back to the wargaming, does Bad Squiddo have a North American distributor?

Part of the "big game" decline is due to time passing. Big games generally require a lot of figures. If they are 28mm metal that's a lot of cash!

Don't want get drawn into the old chestnut debate about value of figures today Versus years gone by but whatever the relative cost may be, if you buy both sides of a conflict, you are looking at a sizeable four figure sum.

The disposable income for that has declined over the years and a lot of those who have built collections over a period that spread this cost are, like me, getting well into their "three score years and ten".

Trust me on this one guys, getting up at the crack of dawn, driving to Excel to set up from 08:00 onward and not getting off site until 18:30 is hard graft at the best of times. If you are in your late 60's it ceases to be a joke.

It's highly likely that less people in the hobby are willing or able to sink time and cash into "inspiration" of others. Personally, I used to get a buzz out of sharing ideas and information but there comes a time when the return is out weighed by the effort.

The social, gender and interest mix of those attending, has nothing to do with the fact that if sufficient people with a level of skill and commitment to produce games worth the time and expense of attending are not around, there will be a feeling of "decline" amongst those who have come to Salute for a decade or more. That's just the way of things.

Squid games a very nasty attack on poor Sid . I am sure on reflection
an apology would be the decent thing.

I've been going to Salute for c 15 years and reading about it afterwards on TMP for nearly all that time, and the hardy annuals are always (i) Games quality is getting worse and (ii) Too much Fantasy and not enough Historical, and at ExCel (iii) "It's too crowded OR too empty" (was always "too crwded" only before that), and a new (iv) The Lighting.

The old (iv) – Horrible queues to get in – have largely disappeared, tickets seem to be mainly online now – though a large number of people still seem to come in early and queue, go figure.

Afaics what has changed in the hobbly in this time has been:

Good:
- The threatening Gamer gray wave has receded, more young people
- More women – painting, playing, producing
- Higher quality figures overall available
- Much larger range of available figures overall
- Thus, far more eras/periods played
- *Much* higher quality terrain available and used
- More and better tools, paints, washes, aids etc
- Net net much higher quality of modelling/game presentation overall

Bad:
- The rise of the "Game in a Box", nearly always a Fantasy skirmish game with its own figure range, usually driven by a Kickstarter
- The rise of absurdly overpriced figures (typically part of the Game in a Box scene)
- From all this the demise of "wow – big games" and the rise of "geez not another bloody 4 x 4 table and skirmish game".

From personal experience, the reason I no longer attend with a large historical game is the uncertainty about actually having a place confirmed in time to book the necessary time off work, accommodation and arrange a group of supporting players. For anyone not in easy reach of London this has to be a consideration.

I appreciate Philip SLW's comment about not being psychic, however I suggest that if gamers (or traders) who have supported a show for 10+ years do not send in a submission then it might be prudent to have a reminder system. Show organisers and supporting gamers and traders are all busy people and mutual respect can be very helpful for all.

I last attended Salute in 2015 with a Guilford Courthouse AWI game. It was a good show and my game won a prize, as I and the group I am part of had done several times previously. We supported the show from 2000 to 2015 missing just one year due to multiple life issues.

Despite applying to take a game in 2016, before the deadline, we were not welcome that year and the bubble was burst for me. I no longer have the energy to put in the effort the Salute entails and I suspect the same or similar is true for some of the other "big historical" gamers. Had 2016 not happened I suspect I'd have stayed in the habit of supporting Salute with a game, but having made the break…

I wish the Warlords success. Much of the issue is about location/ geography these days, rather than show organisation (which seems to have been good in the last couple of years) I'm sure the small skirmish "game in a box" offers lots of people a great experience, but it isn't something I'd travel all the way to London to see. It isn't worth the expense on fuel, parking and entrance money even if I avoid the accommodation costs by doing it all in one exhausting day.

I'll carry on staging demo games, but closer to home in the midlands. Roll on Partizan!

I can understand the "game in the box" popularity because it makes games accessible to the average person. It's easy to forget that many new wargamers can get overwhelmed with thinking about where to start. The mega-games are thoroughly impressive, but out of the reach of the casual, time-poor, gamer.
That said, the mega-games are the real centrepieces for the big conventions.

Warlords should take far more responsibility regarding the people/teams that put showpiece games on for their event .
Provide some financial commitment as there expenses can be overwhelming, hotel, van hire costs etc.
Winners should be rewarded with free entry at future events as as a gesture of good will for all their effort. Its negligence not to do this. I know a couple of best of show winners who think they have the mickey taken out of them.
As warlords tells us the worlds changing and we cant stand still especially with gender/diversity (rightly so ), how about showing some good manors to the people that make the event worth attending and not be taken for granted . You will gradually loose them and my god do you need them.

Perhaps the 'game in a box' or a complete set up reflects the times again. I still do plenty of research for the armies I collect and get a lot of enjoyment from that but some people, (usually younger people) do not seem to have the patience to do such a thing and prefer the instant gratification of having it all done for them. While I do not personally prefer this method if others do then that is their prerogative. I do feel that a lot is lost because a game designers view of a game is based on finishing within a certain time and not always on historical accuracy.

Why all the negativity about "Game in a Box" products? I started wargaming in 1969/70 after buying "Combat" designed (allegedly) by Sir Brian Horrocks. A simple and addictive game-in-a-box that took me to Don Featherstone and the whole world of miniature war games. So I'm all in favour of the availability of more of these games – they can lead players on to so much more in the hobby.

I'm sure the small skirmish "game in a box" offers lots of people a great experience, but it isn't something I'd travel all the way to London to see. It isn't worth the expense on fuel, parking and entrance money even if I avoid the accommodation costs by doing it all in one exhausting day.

I think this is the nub of the "game in the box" issue.

People go to Salute for a number of reasons but if one of their prime things is to see and admire game set ups, an increasing number of "game in the box" displays are going to shoot that fox pretty quickly.

This thread would feel at home on the Napoleonic Board – you provide people with definitive information and they just ignore it because it doesn't fit their world view. I've been visiting Salute since the Kensington Town Hall days and have attended most years when work hasn't intervened. Excel is easily the best venue in terms of space and accessibility (do none of you remember what the backpack issue was like trying to negotiate KTH!). It's very much distant suburbs rather than "London" but transport access is excellent, how ever you want to get there. There are always some fabulous, inspirational tables – 10 gems amongst 90+ is a pretty good hit rate – where else can you get near 100 games, none of which are of the bare table, crap scenery, competition style? The range and quality of the trade stands has improved year on year and you regularly see suppliers who appear nowhere else in the UK. More and more is not to my taste – there should be at least 10x28mm Peninsular War games on huge tables, but, hey, I never really liked all the DBA Ancients stuff of yesteryear either. I appreciate beautifully painted figures on stunning terrain and traders who sell great quality stuff in a very professional manner. It seems to be fashionable to have a dig (hence the ludicrous title of this thread) but Salute is still the best event in the UK calendar (and I regularly visit lots of shows around most of England). God forbid, the SLW decide it's not worth the grief and just retire to run a very successful local club.

Terry N. Good point , I think we tend to lose a bit of continuity as , and there is if course many an upside to this, we now have more members prepared to be on club committee and there is more rotation of the games lead. You may have noticed we used eforms this year so hopefully we can get a bit smarter and sticker.

But FYI in any case during my reign we email all previous attendees (twice this year) before putting up notice to apply on FB, our webpage and elsewhere. And indeed here.

Cheers all for the comments , we will take on the constructive ones and hopefully see you next year.

Interesting to wade through this thread.

I declare an interest as I'm a South London Warlord and worked 2 days to help make the show work.

The statistics that Phillip SLW has shared are valuable and it's good to have data to inform debate.

There were some good games and I believe that the number of visitors was not very different, if at all, from previous years.

The traders I spoke to had a good day.

The non-historical gamers had a good day.

For historical fellows I agree that there were not as many wow-factor games as in previous years but it isn't a "diorama" show after all, and, the opinion of many traders was that the "prettier" shows aren't money makers for them.

Salute is very tiring for traders and visitors.

It is even more tiring for members of the South London Warlords who despite some criticism from traders and visitors we still receive much praise very few complaints.

It is not an easy show to run and I at least hope that it continues to be run by the Warlords and supported by the vast majority who attend year after year.

Cheers,

Paul

My pics from the show, so you can see the spread of games for yourself.
link
I admit I got carried away with Dave Brown's 15mm Ligny at the start! 😄

Henry

For historical fellows I agree that there were not as many wow-factor games as in previous years but it isn't a "diorama" show after all, and, the opinion of many traders was that the "prettier" shows aren't money makers for them.

Interesting comment by traders. Is that because people spend more time looking at the games, or these shows have less space to get to the traders? The old Kellham Hall Partizan used to have great games but it was hell to get round.

Salute is very tiring for traders and visitors.

Its bloody tiring if you are running a large game too! I used to go home with hardly any voice after talking to visitors all day.

It is even more tiring for members of the South London Warlords who despite some criticism from traders and visitors we still receive much praise very few complaints.

That I definitely believe as would anyone who has put on a game at Salute and seen the whole day pre and post show.

Personally, I don't think the TMP criticism of Salute every year should be seen as purely negative but rather customer feed back. Something to be viewed as "Um maybe there's a point there?".

If something comes up repeatedly about one year, or the same thing in successive years and its possible to change it then fine. If not, it is what it is!

Trajanus

Balanced input from someone who knows what they're talking about.

Thank You.

Paul

Battleeditor,

Beautiful pictures of some beautiful games. I don't get the hostility of the "game in a box" setups or the smaller games. Some of them look very nice and they would interest me too. I do love the big sprawling games also, but it is a big hobby.

Anyways, if those pictures are indicative of the "worst Salute ever" then I'm still impressed (from the other side of the pond).

battleeditor

Great pictures.

Thanks

For a sense of just how spoiled you northern hemispherites are, we here in the far-flung outer reaches of the antipodes are about to have an annual show again for the first time in a few years, and we manage to work up some excitement about an event that features five games and eight traders (although I'm sure there'll be a couple more of each by July).

Henry Martini

Wonderful.

Have a great time.

Cheers,

Paul

Thanks for putting things into perspective Henry Martini. Our gamers are spoilt rotten for choice these days but don't seem able to appreciate that fact.

Volleyfire +1

Thanks Basha.

If I may quote freely Harold Macmillan regarding today's wargaming hobby and its participants……….

You've never had it so good!!

If someone said to me.. A lego game won the best game at a wargames convention.. I'd start questioning who and what goes on at conventions now.. I don't go salute.. Too far for me.. But all the local ones I go to I definitely feel fantasy and scifi is taking over and the historical is being pushed away
. It's OK accommodating newcomers but the actual people wanting to spend money are starting to avoid the places

Instinctively, I'm confident that there are far more ‘fantasy/sci-fi' gamers than there are ‘historical', that the former are, on average, younger but also have a higher average spend per year on their toys than the latter.

And, of course, the reasons for going to a show have changed markedly in recent years – researching all the new shiny stuff is far more easily done online than in a magazine or at a show (but that's the same in EVERY industry).

What does it matter of a Lego game got an award at Salute when there were great looking games covering all the main historical periods clearly there as well? Salute has never been solely about historical gaming, a niche within a niche hobby.

Fred, who are these ‘newcomers' of whom you speak? And I'm equally bemused by who the ‘actual people wanting to spend money' are as well. We've never had so many figure companies, large and small, doing as well as they are now.

Volleyfire is right, we've never had it so good – and got to ask, what have the whingers and complainers actually done to help ‘improve' things at the shows they so readily criticise?

Basha ,
There were only a few very good historical games at Salute.
Most were bang average and some were very poor.The display quality has regressed , the mid 90s average would have been far higher in style.
Granted we have better/more figs than years ago but Salute doesn't attract all of them. No more David Thomas, Front Rank , Redoubt just to name a few. If mega sellers is your thing then you are well sorted.
"We have never had it so good "
Give me a Peter Gilder, Bill Gaskin , John Ray , Ian Smith ,
"Wake island " "Monte Casino " Victrix 54mm , Ringrose, Perry games , 1/35 Normandy set ups anyday .

Hi Terry

I remember and was equally inspired by those games, too many years ago than I care to admit! It's probably true that Salute is no longer the ‘best' UK show for historical gamers like us (it's no longer on my ‘mustn't miss' list) but it's simply evolving to meet current customer and trader expectations and economics, and doing it successfully when so many other shows have fallen by the wayside.

But I think we can agree that "we've never had it so good" refers to the general state of the historical gaming hobby in the UK rather than how important Salute is to our ‘niche within a niche'. Maybe it WAS the ‘worst' Salute ever for historical gamers, especially in terms of inspiring games, but that's not it's principal purpose – it will be interesting to see if the organisers and traders deem it to have been a success or not.

If I want to be inspired, then I'll get my fix at Partizan x2 or Hammerhead, both of which probably feature a higher proportion of ‘fantasy' and 2x2 skirmish games but still make for a grand day out.

Running a show at Excel is going to come at a cost (direct and indirect) not applicable to any other UK show that will deter some traders. But some of those traders (Front Rank, QRF etc) have made the conscious decision to pull out of ALL shows because they no longer represent the best way of selling lots of stuff profitably.

It's the old question: what are shows for, and what motivation is there for those that organise them, those that put in games at them, the traders that attend and the punters that visit – and very often their priorities are very different.

Much of this discussion has been about the visual appearance of the display games. Perhaps the overall standard was lower this year; I wasn't there .so I can't comment – but, frankly, I don't care!

To me, a good wargame is one that is easy to learn and play, does not involve lengthy references to rules and moves along quickly to retain players' involvement and allows them to complete it within the time they wish to spend on it. A game that doesn't meet those criteria won't be 'saved' for me by having beautifully painted figures and diorama-standard terrain, whereas I have enjoyed many a game with unpainted RISK figures.

I would not travel far and pay to enter a show just to admire figure painting and terrain modelling that I cannot emulate, nor have any desire to; I would go to participate in a number of different games, and try out new rules/game systems.

Any game that is being presented to the public needs to be
attractive and neat, but there is no need, IMHO, for them to be so large, contain so many figures, or be so expertly modelled that they are, effectively, beyond what most players can reasonably hope to create in their own homes or local clubs. Better to show what can actually be achieved using readily available products/materials and a modicum of modelling skill.

I think you've just described the American system, Arthur.

Just to chip in, as someone who's been attending Salute since KTH, I'm in the 'it's change not deterioration' camp.

'Course, don't get me wrong, if you had a rubbish Salute and you're thinking twice about going again, you are in the right, it's your valid opinion.

But to chip in over some points. I have always considered Salute as the most pro Fantasy Sci-Fi show on the circuit. I put it down to the preferences of the organisers. In contrast, Partizan had a deliberate Historical bias, so much so they started another show, Fantizan, to showcase all the Sci-Fi/ Fantasy games and traders they weren't catering for. That has of course morphed into Hammerhead.

Historical traders. To put this back into the 'change' rather than 'getting worse' bracket. Dave Thomas hasn't attended Salute for two years 'cus he didn't send the forms in (the banana). (I don't know about Front Rank but Redoubt closed/ sold on the business). But in the 'golden age' of Salute, Dave Thomas was there as Foundry (who didn't attend shows). This Salute DT forgot to send in the forms but Foundry were there themselves with a massive stand. Change innit.

Bang on Nick , my old son,
Your right that the Salute organisers are pro sci/fi , fantasy compared to others on the circuit . Besides a natural age swing to fantasy there is no doubt some preference engineering to fantasy over historical . Treadaway , Dallimore and many warlord others are pioneers , gurus main geezers in new age gaming .
90 % of my mates don't go anymore . I go meet up with about 9 blokes spend a couple hours of in the show , feel underwhelmed , nothing special , nothing against outstanding fantasy games but loads of 10 fig skirmish ain't no slap and tickle . Then we spend a few hours in the pub and have a great day , if not a great show.

The lego game being slated by some – from my perspective it was an incredibly innovative example of a wargame that had some really interesting features – e.g. no dice, and entirely built around lego. It was faithful to the film and demonstrated many of the core traits of historical wargaming – research, accuracy, innovation and doing things in a visually impressive way.

It also had a group of enthusiastic people from a club demoing it who were proud of their game and keen to speak to new people, unlike some of the historical demo games I wandered over to who ignored strangers and provided no information or context on their table.

It won because it was a bloody good demo game.

arthur1815, I can only point with pride to the Big Three HMGS conventions in the Eastern US, which have included Hobby University classes in painting and mounting figures, horses, vehicles, and other gaming hardware for many years now.
I am not sure how difficult it might be to initiate a similar offering at UK cons, but if possible, it might galvanize a new wave of gamers into producing spectacular minis and terrain, and drawing more folks into the hobby, while keeping some lagging spirits interested.

Front Rank made a decision several years ago to stop attending any shows – as I remember, it was because of the difficulty of carrying a representative stock. Sod all to do with Salute.

A couple of my points of view for what its worth.

1. If you don't find a show appealing anymore then don't go. I went to Vapanartak as usual this year, wasn't impressed to be honest, and so I'll give it a miss next year.I might try ROBIN instead as I haven't been to that one. No one forces you to go to shows.

2.If you don't find the demo games are meeting your high standard of criteria then why not put one on yourself instead? I'm dipping my toe in the water at The Other Partizan this year for the first time. I don't expect loads of plaudits, there might be some, there might be a few brickbats from those who feel it doesn't reach their level of expectation, but at the end of the day we do what we can afford with the time we have available, to try and put something back into the hobby we love.
I did the same sort of thing when I owned showjumpers years ago and I became a judge to try and put something back into the sport. In return for giving up your Sunday,or whole weekend to sit in a baking hot caravan in the Summer or a freezing cold judges box in the Winter you got abuse from pony parents and riders and you were left wondering if it was all worth it, especially when judges only get travel money and a meal if they are lucky. There are people in every hobby/sport who aren't satisfied and let others know it.There comes a point though where the people who take the flak think 'why bother – I'm doing this for love not money', and walk away and no one is left to pick up the reins (no pun intended) and carry on.

3. Demo games that are full of eye wateringly well painted figures and model railway type terrain may be beautifil to behold, but we are then led back into the argument of elitist gamers with deep pockets versus your average punter on an average wage and what they can afford, and is it a real demonstration of the hobby and what your average player can achieve?

Volleyfire
There is room for all not just a "race to the bottom"
Ive been involed with games that have been awarded and understand fully the hassle.

To be honest while not having been to Salute some of the comments could be aimed at many shows. No there are not as many big games posh games as there used to be. My own opinion is they were never representative of more than 1% or so of all wargames, so no loss really. The fact that folk want to play SI FI/Fantasy is just folk, shows have to change or die. We put on games that represent what most wargamers could at least aspire too. More than that could be doing the hobby a disservice as it could put folk in mind of an unreachable bar.

Who said it was a race to the bottom? Only in the minds of some, most perceive it as a hobby that is constantly evolving.

There are some miserable folk on this thread. If I want "average", I can look at the layout in my spare room. I go to Salute (more so than any other UK show) to be enthused and inspired – it hasn't failed in 3 decades. I can't play golf like Tiger Woods (well, sometimes in the past 10 years ……..) so should I not watch The Masters because they are not "average"?

I enjoyed the show. I feel it reflects the market. Too much fantasy. Too much 28mm. I can live with that because that's what people want to buy.
The best show I went to last year was Joy of 6 for imaginative historical games. I think most people see that as niche. Salute is still the flagship show.

I did not go to this years Salute due to my wife having hip replacement surgery the week before.But have been to several since KTH and put on both a SciFi and a Historically based game at Excel.
For me Scipio sums it up : imaginative historical games.
I think that the historical side of the hobby need to up their game and at least have a "talker " as part of their team to engage with the paying visitors.

Hi all. One more go from the Warlords games guy, especially re latter NickNorth and Sid as you suggest we are influencing the market. If only!

John T and Kev etc you mention, though gaming icons, put on genius games and helped make Salute and SLW what it is , have not been on the organising side of Salute for many a year. In fact the chair and large chunks of the comittee are all historical chaps.

Also we don't vet, set quota, invite, canoodle or other wise control the mix of historical vs other in traders or games : people apply and we get what we get and (subject to aforementioned lack of psychic powers ) everyone who applied vaguely near the booking window got in.

If you want to see what the gaming future might really look like, and you really won't like that, see UK GameCon ….