"The worst Salute ever ?" Topic

The times are changing.
As a spectacle the event is rapidly deteriorating over recent years, but this year in a quality sense for arguably the worlds premier show , was very poor .
Hordes of club games , 2ft commercial minuture board game , mats and cloths in abundance.
The show was propped up by a handfull of very good games but that was your lot.
Sc fi ,Fantasy becoming dominate and as an example would be six glass cases dedicated to Fantasy , 1 to historical in the painting competition.
No support for hundreds of artisan traders who rarely attend , missing so many great manufacturers who's historical sales have deteriorated due to so many customers not finding the journey worth the effort. Half of the reseller trader selling the same products , plastics and laser buildings everywhere.
I think this year looked down in numbers . 10 years ago l would meet and bump into 30 odd people.
Today that number is around 6.
Something is not right , anyone for Lego gaming ?

There was at least one big Lego game.

There does seem to be something wrong this year – normally I'd have expected to see a lot more TMP excitement pre-show, and by now a few people would have posted links to a 1,000 photos.

I would agree with you. It is feeding frenzy of buying for the wargamers, but as show case for the hobby not great. Some nice games and painted models in the painting comp, but the show lacks atmosphere. I didn't bother to go last year, but decided to make the effort this year, but not sure I will bother next year.

The move away from historical to fantasy is ruining that show.

The comment:
"Hordes of club games, 2ft commercial minuture (sic) board game, mats and cloths in abundance."
seems to suggest that it is inappropriate for a wargame show to feature the sorts/standards of games that people actually play at home or in their local club.

How strange!

I just could not be bothered to go this year and none of my friends seemed to be interested either. [I live within central London so travel is easy.] Why I could not be bothered I am not sure but probably it is because for us its become just a giant gaming supermarket and excuse to go out for lunch.

I went for the first time in three years. I felt the numbers were down significantly. The swing towards fantasy was possibly even more reflected by the traders than the games. There were some great looking games and lots of smaller ones that never really capture my attention but that seemed to be being played and enjoyed.

However, I did see some new historical models that were exciting prospects and I got to view a gaming mat I've been considering. I will be buying it so from a general recce point of view the show had value. Id also wanted to view WSS 28mm figures and there were plenty of those to consider.

The money I saved by picking up my order in person (with a special show discount) paid for my day out. Overall I enjoyed it and would go again but I don't think it was a vintage year.

I spent four hours there in which time, other than missing catching up with friends, I was able to see all I wanted to. In the past I've spent all day there.

I do think it could benefit from a bit of a rethink to inject some fresh energy into the presentation. A venue change to Ally Pally (free parking rather than £20.00 GBP) and a few more big historical games could revive it. After all these years it would a shame for the show to slowly ebb away.

Many years ago the view seemed to be often expressed that Salute was best for shopping and Partizan for great looking historical games. Perhaps we've gone back to that position.

I rarely go to Salute, but I did think about it this year, even looked at what I would need to do to get there, but after checking public transport from the Midland's it is just too much faffing and cost for a few hours of show wandering around the stalls and looking at eye candy.

You end up with 4 hours of travel time for maybe 6 hours of show time and that does not stack up in my books. I think there is an market gap for a national show at the NEC but who would want to organise it?

The UK Games Expo is slowly expanding to cover wargaming so maybe in the long run that might be a place to attract more wargames and traders.

I spent the day there yesterday, although I didn't get to see all that much as I was running my Stingray game. I've not been for years – I really don't like the Excel venue, its relatively dark (although there was a cheer in the hall when the lighting went up early in the day) and spending a day on that awful floor left me feeling very old after nine hours on it, but then again thats probably because I am old these days) but I understand why the event is held there. I've not been for a few years, the place felt a lot more open than previously, maybe because the density of games and stands was less but it did seem like a bigger space was used. Not sure either way but the end result was a distinct lack of "crush" which for me was a good thing.

There were only a few "wow" games there for me, principally the "Flash Gordon" Lego game which was wonderful and rightly won "best of show". Yes, there were a lot of "club" games but also some very nicely presented games which in a smaller (and brighter) venue would have had a greater visual impact.

My success criteria a for the day were – run the game (success: we ran seven games during the day, all filled to the gunnals with players who enjoyed it, ad planty of very complimentary comments from passers by), buy stuff (success: i got just about everything was after except for some coastal stuff from Warlord which had sold out early), meet friends (success: I caught up with many old friends who I don't tend to see at shows outside London, plus I made a good number of new friends through conversations and meetings).

I hadn't been for about three or four years but that's mainly because I'm sitting on a lead mountain and have more than enough to keep me occupied for the rest of my natural. I did think the numbers were a bit but on the bright side I also thought the average age was down as well, and the latter is probably more important for the future of the hobby.

I agree that historical (old-fashioned) wargaming was not well served by either the games or trade stands (other than book stalls and I left weighed down with a hundred quids worth). However, I think the sci-fi / fantasy element is what is attracting a new generation of gamers and may even be why there's a growing number of female gamers. I guess military history is bit dull for the more dangerous of the species as it's so relentlessly male-oriented.

Not sure I'll go again for a while as the historical game is my thing and the main point of a show for me is to see the figures in the lead before buying and possibly picking up a few game ideas.

I have to concur, but perhaps it's because I'm closer to 60 now. A lot of smaller games, and only a few real standouts, such as Gringo 40s excellent Tonkin Wars game. I still spent about the same, but somehow the show was just lacking IMHO.

I don't have any plans to go next year, especially as I expect Brexit to put the knockers on most oversea vendors coming, which would be a real shame.

I was the least excited I've ever been at salute. I bought most of what I set out to buy, but saw very little that surprised or inspired me, nice to run into a a few people of course, but it lacked any sort of wow factor for me.
A few of The games were actually pretty good, but again, nothing jumped out as something I'd never seen previously. Perhaps we are getting a little immune to what 10/15 years ago would have been considered amazing. Standards are pretty high these days.
Is it that because any new product/game is already heavily trailed on the internet? An example would be the new Perry WW2 Americans- I AM really excited by these and will purchase them, but didn't buy them yesterday, because they are on my to do list later this year. Maybe I'm getting more disciplined in my old age!

I don't have any plans to go next year, especially as I expect Brexit to put the knockers on most oversea vendors coming, which would be a real shame.

It struck me that there were far fewer mainland-european traders and not so many mainland-European accents as I went around – there are usually quite a lot of Dutch, French, Italians in particular (because it's convenient for Eurostar and London City Airport I guess). I did wonder if there had been an impact already.

"Perhaps we are getting a little immune to what 10/15 years ago would have been considered amazing"

I think this is a part of it, look at the terrain & bitz you can buy nowadays and are more standard on even the club games, even 10 years ago a lot would have been homebuilt.

Also I used to go to Salute just to see things, now most manufacturers' catalogues have far more photos so that's not ae necessary – I now use it as a pre order pickup point, can make a lot of the travel/entry money back just by not having to pay the P&P.

A lot more Salute discussion is on FB these days rather than here – sign of the times. I also noted the demographic is getting younger again, with more women, and there is a bigger tendency to buy all-in-one "boardgame with models" sets.

I don't think there were more Fantasy/SciFi games than Historical games in total, but the Historical % is decreasing annually as SciFi and Fantasy gaming grows. What I did see is more Alt-history, from Warlords own "Alexander v Caesar" to Cold war what-ifs and the Brexit game.

I thought it wasnt a bad day – my own view is that there was a lot of good stuff on display, some interesting stands and some great display games.

To be honest, for all the 'oh its not historical anymore' moaning, it felt like the historical demo games were there in force, and plenty of traders too. I was struck by the sharp contrast between 'old school' traders, many of whom don't seem to have updated ranges or stands in years, if not decades, and who treated the event like an opportunity to catch up with mates and not sell stuff (e.g. breaking off from filling an order with a customer on stand to have long chat with someone who walked up to them that they knew).

by contrast the 'fantasy' side, so derided by some here was vibrant, full of interesting offers and imaginative products and got a lot of attention. Many were sale focused and worked with people to gain interest, not standing back disdainfully ignoring potential customers.

Perhaps problem is that there is a finite limit to what can be produced for interesting historical models, relative to the limitless ground of fantasy models, and frankly in fantasy gaming you'll never have some grognard pick you up for painting the buttons in the wrong colour.

Gaming is in a healthy state these days – the bits that are dying deserve to do so because they act as if the rest of the gaming world owes them fealty, rather than trying to engage and bring new blood in.

As a good example of compromise, the Edinburgh Uni historical gaming in a castle set up using Lion Rampant rules was a great example of taking historical research and putting it into practise, and will soon form a scenario book for Lion Rampant. I am sure people here or elsewhere will find reasons to moan about this though as not being 'historical' enough.

The hobby is changing. The hobby is always changing and has always been changing. What encourages me is the youth present, which remains relatively static over many years.

Having just watched a coupleof videos is Salute, I have to say that I am quite impressed by the variety and presentation quality of the games that I saw. For whatever it is worth, I would be filled with joy at the thought of being able to attend after viewing just a sampling of the games.

I thought there were lots of historical games on display and it seems a bit unfair to criticise the traders for following the market. As others have pointed out the mix of games does a lot to bring in younger people and women and that can only be a very good thing.

Worst Salute ever, or just worst at Excel? There are a few decades to chose from you know.

There have been some a good deal worse, as an experience, than this weekend, in terms of the odd operational and venue owners obstinacy, the original Excel lighting et al but having been to all Salutes, ever, bar two, this was certainly not the "worse".

However, if "worse" means a feeling as flat as an mdf base, then where the Excel era is concerned yeah, it probably was.

The supposed culprits have already been touched on. In your face fantasy/sci fi retailers, even more kitchen table size skirmish games of every kind, and a continuing decline in the big "wow" games from yesteryear etc etc.

The again space usage and layout made the place feel even more of a void than in past years, although 2018 wasn't far behind and this just added to a feel of where is everyone?

Of course that's a bit of a "no win" item, close down some space and people moan at over crowding but the numbers of those small skirmish tables just adds to the tumbleweed effect and to be honest they are a waste of space, for a lot of punters. I watched loads of people just breeze by as if they weren't there. My self and mate included.

Things do change and indeed perhaps we have long since reached "peak historical" but personally I never set off on Fantasy Road to begin with.

I also agree that a lot of the origin level historical vendors who turn up are on a hiding to nothing. Indeed I made a mental note of some where you could tell their tenure in the hobby purely by the age of their customers!

However "out with the old and in with the new" is really only going to see the demise of this event if take too far. The number of historically oriented attendees still outnumbers others and if they get totally cheesed off with the event, they are not likely to be replaced in continuing numbers.

I thought it was a lot of fun- met lots of chums, talked all day. There were fewer historical games – and, it seemed to me, fewer big games, but there was still a lot to see and much fun to be had!

This was my first Salute visit for a couple of years. Got to say I enjoyed it. It felt more 'international' in terms of visitors and vendors.

Seemed that there were more historical games but fewer historical vendors – but that is just my opinion. Also, resin fantasy models seemed to be the 'in' thing this year.

Did enjoy the extra space between the rows of vendors and games and nice to see more women attending.

My only complaint about Salute and this applies to other shows as well, is those 'kind' souls who don't take their backpacks off when visiting some of the smaller vendors. More than once got a whack in the face! Also, I found it got warm quickly in the exhibition hall, which of course had a negative effect on some individuals personal aroma!!!

It's the internet.

As an American I'm interested in the issue of cost that several posters have made reference to…which includes the cost of travel, parking, food and other stuff. How much are you actually talking about…and I realize travel costs vary depending on your distance from the event.

For comparison purposes I drive 7 hours to get to Historicon, paying $100 USD in gas, spend $80 USD a night to share a room times 4 or $320 USD and spend $20 USD dollars a day in food or another $80 USD…so at a minimum I spend about $600 USD or $150 USD a day for my experience…and that's before I spend anything in the dealer area or flea market.

especially as I expect Brexit to put the knockers on most oversea vendors coming

Why?

DBDD

Here we go again. The hobby moves on, adapts, and evolves. Wargamers find that difficult to accept.

To OldNorthState – assuming you started off 7 hrs away those prices are not hugely different (though London hotels cost a bit more per night), the main difference vs Historicon is that Salute is for 1 day so the most you need is 2 nights.

"and, it seemed to me, fewer big games"
Definitely the trend in the hobby, where anything with more than 100 figures on the tabletop is celebrated. One only has to look at page upon page of Kickstarter games packed with incredible components, figures, etc., that play relatively fast. Yes, the figures will never get painted, the game may hit the table twice if circumstances are right, etc., and then the gamer buys another new game and the cycle repeats itself. I see this at my FLGS all the time and even in my own gaming group.

"Wargamers find that difficult to accept"

Not at all. That's the reality of the hobby at the moment. That's not saying you have to participate or be antagonistic towards it, but that's just the way it is. Everything is in cycles and I'm already seeing gamers asking questions about larger games, is there anything besides skirmish games,, etc., so things can change.

@aegis yes the big trend now afaics is the kickstarter "boardgame with models" that gives you all you need to get playing (heck, why bother even painting them). Looking at the ppl I know who succumb to theses its always about the models, but (again afaics) the game doesn't usually match the model quality and then out comes the next shiny set….

oldnorthstate,it's hard to make a comparison of Salute to our US shows. First, it's one day, like seven hours, there's very few "participation" games like you'd be used to, it's a shopping/what's new/meet buddies/look at cool games kind of show. London is likely the most expensive town in Europe, so most everything costs more than you're used to.

But, if you're coming over from the States it's part of a vacation so it's a bit different that way compared to folks in the area. If they're from London they probably take the Tube which is relatively inexpensive, so no parking fee, food is their normal, etc. Admission I think was 10 pounds.

I don't think you could drive from and to anywhere in the UK that would take you 7 hours! I think parking was like 20 pounds, not sure, and their fuel is far more expensive than ours is but their cars are far more efficient so that may be a wash, not sure. Most would take a train I think to get to London. A round trip ticket to Bovington from London, about a two and a half hour trip one-way cost me about $50 USD purchased in advance, so figure from that. I'd think almost all attendees make it a day trip so likely no hotel.

So I think in general Salute costs far less than say going to Historicon/Origins/Gen Con. But it's a different experience. We go to play games at our shows, these guys play games with their club buddies in pubs every week and go to Salute to shop and socialize. I'm here for a week and I'll hang out two nights with the Central London Club in their pub, which is a great place to play, and the guys there are absolutely the best. They've made me feel very welcome and made sure I was getting on the right train, which pub they were going to after Salute, which pub after that, etc! My thanks to them, my new wargaming brothers.

As for the games there this year, they may not have had as many monster "wow" factor games, but in general most of what they had were superior to what we normally see in the US, both figures and terrain. Sometimes I think some of the game boards here were taken from museum dioramas they are so nice. My apologies to our UK cousins, but you're kinda spoiled! Also, there are more wargaming traders here than at any US show.

Just my observations, your mileage may vary.

Norrins, I agree about the backpacks to an extent, but where ould someone leave their pack without the hall being evacuated and the pack "dealt" with?

I don't think you could drive from and to anywhere in the UK that would take you 7 hours!

erm…Scotland??

Steve at the Vault,

Thanks for the input…I understand there are fundamental differences in the two types of events and reflect the difference between the predominance of the "club" gaming that goes on regularly in England and the gaming landscape in the US where most of us meet less regularly. From your description the daily cost to go to Salute is certainly no higher than my daily cost to go to a big US convention.

While I also understand that shows like Salute are really oriented towards buying and selling, with a social component thrown, I continue to see comments about either the lack of games, the quality of games and/or the lack of participation games and more ominously the growing infiltration of fantasy games, so it must be important to some of attendees.

Although I haven't seen much in the way of pictures from Salute yet, those I have seen don't support the premise that the games, either demonstration or participation, are superior to what you would have seen at Cold Wars several weeks ago. Sure some of them look nice but only a couple.

I have made the case over the years that demonstration games with the "museum" quality terrain board are not that different from roughly the same number of similarly well done games at an HMGS convention. The only difference is in the US people actually play with the figures over the terrain. The other difference perhaps is that the nice games from Salute or some of the other English conventions are usually in all the post convention postings, while many of the good US games get lost in the sheer number of games pictures posted.

Thanks again.

I dunno, maybe, but they drive pretty fast!

I've always been under the impression that those spectacular, big games with model railway-standard terrain tend more often than not to be so-called 'display' games, that is, the 'players' are likely to spend the whole show standing around chatting to attendees about the modelling aspects of their tables and never actually play the game – often by design.

Are the Salute changes indicative of merely a cyclic development whereby the wheel will at some point come back to historical mass battles, or is this change a sign of a permanent slide towards oblivion for this type of tabletop game (outside the sheds of a diminishing band of aging grognards, at least)?

I don't think you could drive from and to anywhere in the UK that would take you 7 hours!

Lands end to john o' groats : google estimates ~15hours. That's non-stop.

Norrins, I agree about the backpacks to an extent, but where ould someone leave their pack without the hall being evacuated and the pack "dealt" with?

There was an explosives sniffer dog in the show – I saw it at about 11AM. That was a first.

I'd just like to record a huge thanks to the Sons of Simon de Montfort club for running their Warhammer 40K game and keeping my 9 year old occupied for 20 mins while I did my shopping. And the game looked great as well – I loved the crashed Necron ship!

If "wargaming shows" was a degree subject you could imagine an exam question along the lines of "Historical wargaming is stagnating while sci-fi/fantasy games are constantly innovating. Discuss." The answer's quite complex, I think.

"Historical wargaming is stagnating while sci-fi/fantasy games are constantly innovating. Discuss."

It's harder to reinvent history

- shiny new model options are more limited
- can't just invent a new overpowered force or model type to make ppl buy the next codex
- harder to completely rewrite "the fluff" to reboot
- rules have to represent a reality, so need to be tighter
- force structures are more defined (not that that stops some historical gamers :D )

But the biggest problem (IMO) is there is a cadre of historical gamers who are incredibly stuck in their ways, to a level fantasy gamers are not, and any great change has to avoid rather than include them (so smaller market etc). I play imagi-nations and that is quite a "release" but "true historical gamers" look askance at things like this.

There's also a cadre of stick-in-the-mud fantasy/SF types who only really like Warhammer/Warhammer 40K / Age of Sigma !

It seems to me that there's a regular swing back and forth between historicals and fantasy/SF – all it needs is the right rules and/or figures and/or film/TV series to put historicals in the limelight again.

DBA really re-invigorated Ancients. And then the very different Warhammer Ancient Battles did the same. A few years back Sharpe gave Napoleonics a real boost, as did various skirmish rulesets for the period. There have been at least two "waves" of Colonial Africa type games.

SF/Fantasy is the same – games come and go: Weird World Wars were everywhere a few years ago, not so much this year. Anime inspired games also seems to have come and gone again. At the moment small fantasy skirmishes seem to be the way to go – but they probably won't be in a couple of years.

And "historical" Imaginations ? All the big names of the early years played them (Hyboria anyone?), so I'd ignore the nay sayers and sneerers!

Oldnorthstate….

The cost thing has a lot to do with the fact that Salute is in London.

For one thing, many people in the rest of Britain really don't like London. They regard it as too expensive, full of stuck-up rich people, and always getting the most investment especially from the Government. There is a perception that the rest of the country gets ignored.

Also, London IS ridiculously expensive. For example, to park your car at Excel is a flat daily rate of £20.00 GBP For comparison, I've parked in other areas of the country for 50 pence per hour. And you are forced to park at Excel. Even if you could find some on-street parking it will be miles away and need a residents' permit!

So, all in all, a good excuse for a good whinge….

I find the idea that a hobby is "stagnating" odd. My hobby is doing fine – I am not doing the same thing as other people and I find a lot of stuff at wargames shows doesn't interest me nowadays.

But, I am interested in the niche of 54mm wargaming and have no interest in the latest boxed game with miniatures or "History in a box" type game.

It doesn't bother me if other people are, though – I still play a lot of games and find other like-minded people. The wargames hobby is a broad church…

Mike

Hi everyone
I handle the games side of Salute (2nd year ) been a warlord for about 10 years so utter newbie :)

Peoples views are people views of course but some facts on the games and the old historical vs SciFi thing at Salute:
98 games tables/ spaces booked in (about 4 ‘spaces'had couple of the 2x2, 3x3 pods in them)

Over 50 of the games are firmly historical and that excludes the alt-history things

On sheer acreage, historical wins: not many trader demo sci-fi skirmish have tables over 12' long … (there are at least ten game of that scale)

60 games were participation games to varying degrees, and a mix of historic and scifi/zombies/fantasy. Most designed for drop in drop out in a battle or fast paced 30-40 min bashes.

Of the 11 prizes available for games 6 went to historical games ( and of course 2 prices only available to SciFi/fantasy !)

Anyway hope that informs the discussion.

Very informative, Philip.

Still … Never let facts get in the way of a good whinge ,-)

On lighting / space.

Excel run the lights at 50% during setup and then at 100% for show.

Over last few years we increased floor space but kept numbers of stands same/slight increase so it felt less ‘cosy' or other more robust adjectives the large number of people who didn't like it used!

So one person's empty is another persons room to breath…

As every year we are working on the Axminster carpet option, possibly teddy bear fur sprayed green to stay in theme.

The other thing that gets forgotten is that the Warlords can't realistically be held responsible for the quality of the games on the day.

Walking round on Saturday we came within a whisker of recanting on our decision to pull the plug on bringing a 12 foot long (historical) game every year, that we made a couple of years ago. It really was a "these guys need us" moment.

Not that we were at the level of the one off, purpose made terrain just for Salute tables but come on guys, at least we were at a level that had people dropping compliments!

I still think that the standard is declining Year on Year and that games on little more than a square metre are a bit of a joke but the alternative would be a literal void in the floor space, judging by this years numbers.

As I recall, the main space difficulty is the manner in which Excel rents floor area, which generates a Goldilocks principle that's hard to resolve. Maybe setting a bottom level for table size might help drive up the game standard and floor issue at the same time?

As a uk trader not allowed to attend it was disappointing, not much big big games going on. Terrible lighting, plus trade stands are too expensive anyway, we need a better venue, better lighting and big historical wargames. 15% off at Tinywargames (plug plug)

@Steve at the Vault.

I live in Edinburgh.

The farthest south I can drive to a show in one day is York for Vapnartak. That is a 4 hour drive (staying legal) including a 30 minute stop for refreshment. And another 4 hour drive home afterwards.

Driving from there to London is another 4 hours assuming you stop only once more on the way. I wouldn't drive that far in one trip as it wouldn't be safe.

So ignoring trains and planes the only solution is to stay away, and I do unless you stay overnight before and after the cost of which which blows away the wargaming kitty.

In spite of that I do still drive to a dozen shows a year, a few of them quite big shows so I still get to see a lot of hobby goodies. Therefore I don't really miss much by not attending Salute.

On the range of traders; yes there are the megamarts. You could also buy from a small stand one man band 10mm scale accurate 1940 maginot turrets or 40mm 19th C French colonials, or everyform of bicorne/bicorne in all scales and shapes.

On access for traders: those who put in forms in good time had a place, all strictly first come first served, those who realised they hadn't applied until a month before or otherwise relayed on our psychic powered tended not to.

On overseas visitors; usual massive range of nationalities in painting competition, there were 4 non uk games and I spoke to 3 non Uk traders.

Phillip mate the perception of the show has changed for many .
The games historical or fantasy are bang average and some disgracefully bad . A few are great but blimey it's becoming hardly worth the effort .
All my mates that attend Newark can't be bothered to attend as they all say that quality is on a downturn .
Spin it how you like but the feel seems more enginered to fantasy .
Not a critism but it's the standards of quality were at the lowest this year.

My old mate Bill Brewer ( God bless him) would have had a fanny fit .

Freecloud – agreed, but figure manufacturers and rules publishers could be a little more adventurous, and rather than endlessly rehash the same, tired old large-scale military campaigns they could turn to untouched, skirmish-only historical subjects… especially if they're about to be 'officially' endorsed with the high-exposure treatment of a snazzy new Osprey MAA book :- ).

Sid fiddler. No spin, just data / numbers and they dispute the SciFi bias lazy assumption. Wargaming is always changing , mostly in age profile sadly. Hopefully the 5000 (plus or minus few 100) that come through the every year will continue to be more diverse in age, gender and what they play. I'm not here to convert nor defend Salute as perfect ( always catching new stuff to change / improve) just speaking up for hard working historical gamers :)