"Warsaw Pact Response?" Topic

Gents,
My hypothetical moderns campaign setting revolves around the US beginning it's War on Terror after the bombing of the Marine Barracks in Beirut Lebanon in 1983. If in this setting the US is trying to help the US friendly Lebanese Government stand on it's own two feet and eject the terrorist and Syrian elements out of Lebanon with French and UK support. If this involved an invasion of Syria do you think that this would provoke a response by the Warsaw Pact in Europe? Also in the campaign setting, if the Lebanese campaign is successful there would also be invasions of Libya and Iran.

Some of the first US/NATO forces would be Airborne, Commando and Marines.

The WP would respond similarly … initially at least. With the USSR in the lead and the overwhelming number of forces.

I don't think there's much the WP can do even if there's the will. The Soviets are fully engaged in A'stan in '83 and probably won't do anything about Lebanon, but if their clients Syria and Libya are invaded then all bets are off.

The Middle East is a popular starting point for WW3 in alt-history, particular in the late 70s and early 1980s.

My own (1981) WW3 campaign is postulated as following a US response to a Sov invasion of Iran.

Given how close things got in 1973, it is fairly safe bet to say a US invasion of Syria in 1983 would provoke an aggressive response from Moscow. Andropov was a real hardliner and Syria is a key USSR ally. They would also get very excited about a US invasion of Iran.

The two combined would be an existensial threat to the integrity of the USSR and therefore sufficient grounds to warrant an invasion of western europe, if not all out nuclear war.

To be more clear. I do have the Soviets supporting Syria with Airborne and Soviet Naval Infantry, plus a Tank Brigade as the rhetoric heats up. What I meant was Do you think that this spark would cause the Warsaw Pact to roll into Western Europe?

For US I have the 2nd MAR Div, 82nd Airborne and 24th Mech Inf.

Do you think that this spark would cause the Warsaw Pact to roll into Western Europe?

I see. Quite possibly then because the US and her allies will have their attention fixed on the ME. If nothing else, it would force the US to fight on two fronts. Israel may have to be drawn into the maelstrom to take off some pressure.

Thanks for the input Gents!

As noted above, yes, this would be enough to start WW3.

This is 1983, and it didn't get much tenser than that (apart from the Cuban Missile Crisis). We all thought we were going to die.

Did the WP have the ability to supply a two front war?

For US I have the 2nd MAR Div, 82nd Airborne and 24th Mech Inf.

I'd think based on my service in the US Army, '79-'90. The forced would be one MARDIV, US 509 Para Bn stationed in Italy, and the 18th ABN Corps consisting of the 82d ABN, 101 Air Assault Div, + 197th Mech Bde. I served in both the 101 and then 197th. Those units could get there quickly. In those days it was call the Rapid Deployment Force. The IDF being right across the border(s) would probably lend some support as well. They had and have no love for the Syrians and their other local allies, e.g. Hezbollah, etc.

In '73 during that Arab-Israeli war. The USSR "warned" the US. That they could get one of their ABN Divs there before we could get a USMC Div and/or an ABN Div.

Moving a whole Mech Div i.e the 24ID would take a lot of assets. The 197th Mech Bde was part of the 18th ABN Corps to provide some heavy support. And would be easier and quicker than moving an entire Div. If the 24th was deployed it would be a follow on force. Behind the others.

I don't think there's much the WP can do even if there's the will.

Even with the USSR having forces deployed in A'stan. They'd had other assets in Eastern Europe including some WP that could deploy some forces to the Mid East. The USSR/WP had a lot of units. The only thing is some would probably vary in quality. But I'd think the USSR standard of quantity would still be there.

Did the WP have the ability to supply a two front war?

And even though the USSR had forces in A'stan, they still had a lot in Europe. The USSR forces in A'stan rolled across the Russian border to get there. That would free up air and naval transport assets to deploy units to the Mid East if needed.

We all thought we were going to die.

I was in the 101 in an Air Assault Bn, '80-'83. We didn't think we'd be doing much dying. Like what Patton said in WWII about dying for one's country … Of course I/we were much younger then …

Assuming the Us gets the initiative, how do those WP guys come, which way? And get resupplied?
Hardly via Turkey, Iran then? Sea. Hummmm.

Legion:

My thought is yes, Initial forces are Lebanese, 2nd Mar Div. and 82nd(allows me to use those lovely M551s) as rhetoric build and kicks off the campaign with a brigade or two of 24th coming as a Follow up reinforcement(Round out brigade to be used in Iran later). My intent was to try to not use forces already in Europe to try to prevent Warsaw Pact forces from shifting from Europe.

Jcfrog:
My idea is that The Black Sea Fleet Naval Infantry Brigade and an Independent Tank brigade are landed in Syria as the rhetoric builds before actual combat breaks out. Their main job is to safeguard Syria, not invade Lebanon per se. With later US and USSR involvement in Iran 1st an air bridge from Iran/Iraq to Syria, followed by a possible land bridge once opened.

What do you guys think?

Legion:

I have a question for you. The Orbat that the rules that I use appropriately break out M60 MG teams as a unit within a Marine infantry unit. MGs are not broken out in Army Mech units. did the MGs stay on the M113 or were there MG sections attached to infantry platoons?

Legion:
My thought is yes, Initial forces are Lebanese, 2nd Mar Div. and 82nd(allows me to use those lovely M551s) as rhetoric build and kicks off the campaign with a brigade or two of 24th coming as a Follow up reinforcement(Round out brigade to be used in Iran later). My intent was to try to not use forces already in Europe to try to prevent Warsaw Pact forces from shifting from Europe.

Chances are if the 82d was deployed, that the 101 would follow. The 18th ABN Corps was 82d, 101, 197th. The 101 is in Ft. Campbell, KY. The 197th at Ft. Benning, GA. We, the 101, and/or the rest of the 18th, were to deploy any where as needed. E.g. When the Hostage Rescue in Iran failed, we, the 101, along with the 82d went on full alert to deploy to Iran and/or to that region.

The 101 is lighter than the 24th and hence easier and more quickly to deploy. You want to get as much firepower as you can. As quickly as you can, as soon as possible. On the ground … E.g. the 82d secures an airfield, then the 101 lands. Expands the Airhead, etc. The 509 ABN from Italy could/would be attached to the 82d or used as a Corps asset.

Then elements of the 197th could land at the airfield. And/or the 197 would/could also land elements at a port the USMC secured. Or even a port the 509 captured. Or both …

The 197th was part of the 18th ABN just for that reason. The 24th would probably be follow on as needed after all those ABN Corps and USMC units are deployed. However, the 24th may be sent or in reserve to be sent to West Germany. As it is heavier than any of the 18th's units overall …

The 197 Mech Bde is a separate unit. Actually being a self contained Bde Battle Group. Consisting of :

2 Mech Bns[M113s, I commanded 1 of the Mech Cos., '87-'89]

1 Tank Bn [3 M60 Co. & 1 M1IP Co.]

1 SPFA Bn – M109 SP 155s

1 ARMOR CAV Troop

1 ARMOR CE Co.

1 MP Plt

1 CBT SPT Bn

The 82d's M551 Bn was traditionally cross attached one M551 Co. to each Bde or Bn depending on the situation. The 197th was referred to as the "Sledgehammer" Bde, of the 18th ABN Corps. A powerful combined arms Mech heavy force. Generally kept as a self contained force. The Corp's "Sledgehammer".

MGs are not broken out in Army Mech units.

Here's how a US ARMY Mech unit Squad was organized:

Fire Tm A:

1 M60 MG
1 M203 GL
1 M249 SAW
2 M16s

Fire Tm B:

1 M47 MAW
1 M203
1 M249
2 M16s

Squad Ldr – M16
Note: M72s LAWs, Grenades, demo, issued as needed

The M113 had an M2 .50 Cal normally mounted on the TC hatch. The only time if ever we dismounted it was in a Deliberate Defense. And dug it in. The .50 cal weights @ 128lbs not counting ammo. Too 'n heavy to lug very far, very fast, for very long …

Each Mech Co had an organic Section if 2 M901 ITVs as well. The Co. was prepared to deal with the USSR/WP Armor heavy assault that was expected to across the IGB.

Or anywhere else, against any Russian trained and outfitted with USSR/WP equipment nation/force. Plus M72s, M47 MAWs & TOWs can be used on targets other that Armor, of course.

Plus each Mech Bn had a AT Co. of 3 [or 4?] M901 ITV Plts. Again to destroy WP armor formations. [Or anything else !]

Thank you very much for the info Legion. So in the rules that I have they have different values for a Marine infantry unit and an Army infantry unit. You may have explained why. The M60 is integral to the Army fire team, while in the Marines there were M60 sections from Weapons platoon that were attached to the other infantry platoons.

In the Marines with the 4 man Fire Team we had:

Team Ldr. w/ M203
1 M249
2 rifle men with M16.

3 Fire Teams per squad.

Glad to help ! Yes, the M60 was part of the US Army Inf Squad. Which consisted of two 5 man Fire Tms + 1 SL. Plus the M2 .50 cal on the Track …

Quite a bit of firepower!

Pvt641, not to spoil the fantasy what if, but Iran Irak war in full tilt back then, hardly an air bridge that way no?
A forlorn hope with some of their best quasi pro troops. Hardly they would believe the locals can stand the western armies (and no doubt iaf would take advantage).
Only a political show, like "hostage troops" to say don't go. Not to hope for a fight with a chance.

Well JC, I don't see the Iraqi's opposing the air bridge. I think that the Soviets could keep a lane clear when desired.

Quite a bit of firepower!

Yes a lot of firepower … and we figured we may need it. When things got hot.

Iran Irak war in full tilt back then, hardly an air bridge that way no?

Yes, and the US was giving some support to the Iraqis. We still were not happy about what Iran did to our embassy, etc.

Iraqi's opposing the air bridge.

The Iraqis had a lot of USSR training and equipment. But the US was giving/selling Saddam intel, equipment, etc., to fight Iran. As did the USSR … And don't forget Iran-Contra. link

So all in all with all the going on at that time, Iraq would probably at least let the USSR use their air space. Probably secretly ? They were Saddam's #1 supplier.

I can't see the WP getting involved in response to ME battles.

The US/NATO were really too powerful by then.

Certainly the Soviet Union/Russia would get involved in the ME, but not other members of the WP back then. I also think it unlikely that the USSR/WP would make any moves together in Europe in reaction to events in the ME.

But the WP were "basically" under the USSR's control. If for some only "nominally" However, they'd probably be used in Europe if war broke out. But the WP Paras, etc., might go in with the USSRs paras, marines, etc., in the ME.

Again if need be …