"Acrylic varnish over lacquer?" Topic

So this came up when I was sealing some models with brush on varnish. I'm doing the gloss first/followed by matte.

Up until now I was using Army Painter and Vallejo, gloss is Vallejo and the matte is Army Painter. Both of those are acrylic varnishes.

So I wanted to try gloss lacquer,in this case Alcad II Clear. Not even thinking of it, I did a second coat of clear over the lacquer with the Army Painter acrylic varnish.

I wait the usual 24 hours to make sure things are thoroughly dry before doing additional coats.

My question is, can there be problems doing acrylic gloss over lacquer gloss? I would think it would be ok if the previous layer is cured properly. The models I did seem perfectly fine and putting matter over it all seems to have worked as planned. No visual clues or problems.

Also, can you acrylic matte over gloss laquer?

It seems as though you've answered your own question. Experimentation is king, Baby! Just remember, Simple Green is the painter's eraser… Cheers!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

I imagine you can, but don't know for sure.

I have read of issues doing the reverse though, so don't recommend that, e.g. putting lacquers over acrylics.

I still don't know why people keep doing this time waster of gloss then matt varnish. If you want gloss, do gloss; if you want matt, do matt. There is no good reason to do both. The idea that gloss is harder or more resistant than matt has been shown to be a myth so why do people keep doing it ?

I varnish gloss as I go, light coats to help ease the application of various enamel products over acrylic paint. All gets a big matte spray at the end.

McW – there is some logic to that methodology, I'd agree. Personally I use only acrylics so wouldn't know if it was strictly needed but I'll bow to your experience on that.

I still don't know why people keep doing this time waster of gloss then matt varnish. If you want gloss, do gloss; if you want matt, do matt. There is no good reason to do both. The idea that gloss is harder or more resistant than matt has been shown to be a myth so why do people keep doing it ?

Ah but there is and it has nothing to do with one being harder than the other.

Gloss allows the wash to settle in the recesses to give the shadow effect while while applying a wash over matt varnish just tends to look dirty. So once the figure is painted and dried, hit it with a coat of gloss varnish, and once dry, apply the wash, and then once the wash has dried finish it off with matt varnish.

That's another idea I've heard before but it isn't what I was referring to.

I'll be honest and say I don't see the point of that method either – I use washes over the paint coat (sometimes between coats) and rarely have a problem with it failing to settle where I want it to. I use diluted acrylic ink mostly.

I still don't know why people keep doing this time waster of gloss then matt varnish. If you want gloss, do gloss; if you want matt, do matt. There is no good reason to do both.

A gloss coat can add strength to a clear coat, but not just because it's glossy. Here are the reasons I use a gloss coat underneath:

Gloss coats tend to go on more thickly; a thicker layer of clear coat is more protection.

Gloss is a contrast to the dull acrylics I paint with. After the gloss clear coat dries, I can see the spots I missed, and respray if necessary. If I directly apply a dullcoat, I can't really tell where it hit and where it missed.

Gloss clear coats are not prone to clouding or powdering when the temperature/humidity is off, a problem with dull/matte/satin clear coats that I struggle with constantly where I live. I can get a gloss coat onto my miniatures to protect them almost any time of year; I have limited opportunities to spray a dull coat or even satin or matte.

I deliberately choose expensive gloss coats formulated for automotive use, for three reasons:

1. They are strong; they're intended to protect paint on vehicles exposed to a lot of dings and bumps.
   
2. They're formulated to be non-yellowing under intense and prolonged sunlight exposure. This can be a very hard thing to determine with clear coats, because the manufacturers are often silent about it, but nobody wants a yellowing car, so it's pretty much a given with automotive paints.
   
3. Automotive gloss coats are (usually) formulated to protect the underlying paint from fading or yellowing under UV. Since I tend to use my miniatures for decades, this could actually be a concern.

The idea that gloss is harder or more resistant than matt has been shown to be a myth so why do people keep doing it?

There's actual testing data to prove this? Where? Link?

- Ix

Gloss allows the wash to settle in the recesses to give the shadow effect while while applying a wash over matt varnish just tends to look dirty.

I'll be honest and say I don't see the point of that method either – I use washes over the paint coat (sometimes between coats) and rarely have a problem with it failing to settle where I want it to. I use diluted acrylic ink mostly.

Quite often I find matte or satin is better for washes. Gloss will keep the wash off the larger, flatter surfaces, but I frequently want it on those surfaces. For instance, I use washes as a color coat in some areas – I tend to tint flesh, fur, hair and cloth with acrylic inks, which are semi-transparent.

- Ix

Also, can you acrylic matte over gloss laquer?

Yes. You can put pretty much anything over the top of a clear gloss lacquer without harming it. The only problem you may have is adhesion – gloss is (deliberately) not a "toothy" surface.

Do not try the reverse. If you clear-coated in a gloss coat labeled "enamel" or a water-based clear coat, do not apply a lacquer over it. The chemical solvents used to make lacquer flow can attack enamels and cause all kinds of ugly results – crazing, bubbling, pitting, orange peel, etc.

Conversely: I have successfully applied clear lacquers over water-based acrylic paint jobs a lot. I'm not a chemist, so I don't quite understand why that works, but it does, as long as the acrylics are fully dry before overspraying.

As an aside: if you use Future as a gloss coat for protection, you should use an enamel or non-lacquer acrylic dull/matte over the top of it. I've successfully sprayed Testors Dullcote lacquer over Future without a problem, but Testors brush-on Dullcote Lacquer turned a couple ships protected by Future into a complete disaster of flowing colors. In retrospect, I am confused about why the spray Dullcote worked, but suffice it to say Testors spray Dullcote is amazing stuff.

- Ix

@Gildas, it's based off received wisdom, but it works for me. Its also a process I only use for painting vehicles.

Quite often I find matte or satin is better for washes. Gloss will keep the wash off the larger, flatter surfaces

Exactly so! If I want the wash to settle into the nooks and crannies it goes over gloss. If iI want to muddy up a surface it goes on over matt.
Of course decals go on gloss to prevent silvering.

I use acrylic gloss first followed by acrylic matt. The point of this is to seal the colour. I have found that applying matt over Vallejo darkens the colours. Applying gloss before matt avoids this happening and the method preserves the colours.

I'm a gloss varnish, ink and matte varnish adherent. I find inks discolor my paint job without the gloss and I want my inks in recesses to emphasize depth. Additionally, my figures rarely chip because of the added protection. I've done it other ways and I prefer the this method.

It's a ritual I use, and it pleases me to do so.