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"Do Standees Count as Miniatures?" Topic


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05 Mar 2019 6:37 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

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Comments or corrections?

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian05 Mar 2019 6:36 p.m. PST

Does a small figurine which consists of a 2D paper image and a plastic stand, or a self-standing paper figurine, known as a standees, count as a miniature?

mad monkey 105 Mar 2019 7:03 p.m. PST

Yep. Don't see why not.

Personal logo pavelft Supporting Member of TMP05 Mar 2019 7:25 p.m. PST

I believe they count.

Personal logo miniMo Supporting Member of TMP05 Mar 2019 7:38 p.m. PST

Flats count, right?

Col Durnford Supporting Member of TMP05 Mar 2019 7:44 p.m. PST

Not on my table.

Winston Smith05 Mar 2019 7:44 p.m. PST

Sure. Why not?

Aethelflaeda was framed05 Mar 2019 8:04 p.m. PST

No. Flats, that get painted do.

Rakkasan05 Mar 2019 8:17 p.m. PST

Yes, they count

Twilight Samurai05 Mar 2019 9:24 p.m. PST

I don't believe so.

link

I struggle to see a difference…

link

…from one to the other.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP05 Mar 2019 10:32 p.m. PST

Yes. They are (literally) "paper miniatures," so therefore they are miniatures.
"Miniature" is, after all, merely a term for a small scale representation of a larger object or person. That's all the word means. It doesn't mean "three dimensional," or "metal" or "plastic" or any other more precisely defining characteristic.

Whether one likes them, or would place such on the table, is an entirely different issue than how paper miniatures fit within the broad definition of "miniature." To say one doesn't like them is a perfectly reasonable statement of preference. To say they "don't count" (and thus to disparage someone else's preference) is actually just snobbery.

Personal logo Doctor X Supporting Member of TMP05 Mar 2019 10:58 p.m. PST

Technically yes, they are a 2-D representation.

ZULUPAUL Supporting Member of TMP06 Mar 2019 3:20 a.m. PST

Not for me.

UshCha06 Mar 2019 3:42 a.m. PST

I have made 2D representations of troops and had folks believe they were minatures untill they got close up. I even had a very Irate gentleman come up to me in a show. He was cross as he had walked past our wooded battlefield several times before realising that the trees were just a card crusiform, he was cross becaude he was offended that we "tricked" him. However there were lots of trees.

To be honest I would love to see somebody do flat 12mm modern figures well printed both sides on card and accurately laser cut out in say polycarbonate 2mm or less thick. To me that would be close to the perfect minature. By alternating side view and front view and angleing the figures it would look OK from all directions. These would be the Ultimate Wargames Figure, repsentative, easy to relate too, and no resorting to the Horrors of painting.

My one problem is my laser cutter does not have a good means of accurately and consistently locating the cutter start point to points on a piece of printedcard. The parts are themselves quite accutare but the position on the paper are a bit variable.

FusilierDan06 Mar 2019 5:43 a.m. PST

You mean like this? I'd say yes.

picture

image from here
link

irishserb06 Mar 2019 5:48 a.m. PST

If there is a full size, two sided 2-D illustration and you make a little one, then the little one is a miniature. If there is a full size 3-d object, and you make a small 2-D representation of it, you have a small illustration of the actual thing. Doesn't matter if you attach it to a vertical or horizontal backing. Sticking a poster to a wall, does not convert the poster into a miniature.

Personally, representing soldiers and vehicles, etc with such a thing is not a consideration for use in my hobby.

I have no problem with someone who would use such a thing in their hobby, its just not part of mine.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Mar 2019 6:59 a.m. PST

Yes, unless they are 1:1 scale or larger.

picture

You must be this tall to buy duty free.

Joes Shop Supporting Member of TMP06 Mar 2019 7:00 a.m. PST

Yes

22ndFoot06 Mar 2019 8:35 a.m. PST

Fusilier Dan +1

Yes.

Personal logo John Jacobs Supporting Member of TMP06 Mar 2019 8:49 a.m. PST

Yes they count as miniatures.

Personal logo miniMo Supporting Member of TMP06 Mar 2019 12:47 p.m. PST

For other materials for pre-printed flats, there is this current Kickstarter project for plexiglass ones: link

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP06 Mar 2019 2:51 p.m. PST

I think we need to refer this to the International Commission on Wargaming Collection Assessments for a binding ruling.

Aren't they the people who do the official count?

altfritz06 Mar 2019 3:50 p.m. PST

No.

martin goddard Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Mar 2019 9:20 a.m. PST

Very much yes in my opinion.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Mar 2019 10:37 a.m. PST

the International Commission on Wargaming Collection Assessments

They seem to be out at the moment …

picture

I'll get the commissioner on the phone …

picture

OK, they're deliberating your proposal …

picture


p.s. Sorry I couldn't find a good still shot from Steve Allen's Meeting of Minds. That would have been best.

von Schwartz09 Mar 2019 6:20 p.m. PST

No, painted flats are OK though

Lost Wolf10 Mar 2019 3:27 p.m. PST

No

von Schwartz10 Mar 2019 5:25 p.m. PST

OK, there are a lot of "NO" votes here so why am I being chastised on another thread in a different message board for saying that I don't particularly care for paper soldiers?

Yesthatphil24 Feb 2020 9:43 p.m. PST

They are paper soldiers … I collect soldiers and wargame with them. I have some paper soldiers in my collection.

So, yes, I count them.

Phil
The question is irrelevant to me as I don't call my figures miniatures and don't define my wargaming as 'miniature' wargaming (although the vast majority of it does involve figures or models). I generally say, soldiers, toy soldiers or figures. In my 52 years of wargaming (across 4 continents) I've never heard the term 'standees' used for paper or card soldiers. Looking it up, I don't think the Editor has the usage right in this case. But what do I know?

UshCha26 Feb 2020 2:07 p.m. PST

Now't wrong with 2D figures. In a recent article I saw some debate on the use of 2D buildings and I for one am trialing 2D trees and they do appear to be effective. However there does need to be a lot more needed for effect than a 3D tree (say cruciform types) so the jury is still out but in the end its each to there own.

We have been using 2D smoke in miniature games for many years as it is meets artistic and practicality requirements far better than any other approach we have seen.

The game is more important than the figures otr the terrain so in the end if the game works who cares if its 2D or 3D or even a mix.

Sgt Slag26 Feb 2020 2:22 p.m. PST

A lot of role player's use paper/acrylic flats, or standee's, for their games. I use 3D mini's on a vinyl grid mat, with rooms, and mazes drawn out, using wet-erase pens. I sometimes add in full, 3D terrain features: Link1. I also play historical miniatures games, as well as gaming mass fantasy battles (Link2), and I even play wargames, using dice, and CRT's, with plastic Army Men figures and vehicles… Link3

They are all TOYS, whether they are fantasy, or historical, does not matter. The quality of the painting does not matter to anyone outside of the hobby: they all think they are just, "toys"…

In the end, people outside of our fun little (in more ways than one…) hobby, consider us to be men who play with, "toys." Take a break, Guys. This is nothing to get your undies in a twist over. Go back to playing with your toys, whether they be made of lead, some other metal alloy, paper, resin, or plastic, 3D, or 2d, or even disc-shaped pongs (when I was a poor High School student, running an RPG, we used dice in place of miniatures -- we couldn't afford them, yet). I don't care what others think of my hobbies -- I'm too busy enjoying myself to take notice. Cheers!

UshCha27 Feb 2020 10:09 a.m. PST

Sht Slag,
Intereting defintion of toys. Would Footbalers call there Balls Toys. By your efinition they most certaily are as are golf balls and golf clubs and Tennis rackets.

By your definition a Tour de France winner is just re-living his Childhood on a toy. Not sure you get many takers on that one.

Wargaming is, or can be a serious hobby, whether you like it or not.

Jeffers27 Feb 2020 2:12 p.m. PST

I've used pipe cleaners for miniatures, so yes.

UshCha28 Feb 2020 3:57 a.m. PST

Jeffers,
Pipe cleaners? That sound awsome how did you use them? I only briefly used them for hedges at 6mm scale. I did not last long in 6mm the rules were still rubbish regards realism for me so took up ancients where the rules were less rubbish at the time.

Jeffers28 Feb 2020 5:42 a.m. PST

Cut them into quarters, bend each length and twist, turn up at the bottom for feet, glue to a base, spray with a suitable colour and blob on as much detail as you can eg black hat, face, pack, etc. I used thick wire painted brown and silver for muskets. Horses were thin blocks of balsa (acquired cheaply from school – that's another story…) with a quarter pipe cleaner glued on top to form the head and tail. Riders were made as normal but pushed onto the horse. Wire swords and lances to taste… They were roughly 18mm.

UshCha28 Feb 2020 8:35 a.m. PST

jeffers, great, somehow we have lost that spark of ingenuity in the race for excessive detail that was never really needed for an actual game.

Jeffers08 Mar 2020 9:54 a.m. PST

One thing I forgot to mention: this only really works with proper pipe cleaners – the off-white, bobbly ones. The Ďarty' pipe cleaners you get from craft shops don't work.

And avoid the ones with spiky plastic interwoven. They lacerate your fingers. Good for cacti, though!

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