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"They represent the 43rd or the 42nd?" Topic


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20 Feb 2019 1:10 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Changed title from "They represent the 43 rd or the 42 nd ?" to "They represent the 43rd or the 42nd?"
  • Changed starttime from
    20 Feb 2019 12:03 p.m. PST
    to
    20 Feb 2019 12:05 p.m. PST

20 Feb 2019 1:11 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from 18th Century Product Reviews boardCrossposted to 18th Century Discussion board


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18th Century

621 hits since 20 Feb 2019
©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP20 Feb 2019 1:03 p.m. PST

Hello everyone ,

Please the 30 mm Willie War Game 30 mm figures by E. Suren representing the 43 rd or the 42 nd ?

I also want to know if these figurines are for the WAS or the SYW?

And when did the grenadiers of this regiment adopt fur hats?

Thank you in advance to all …

JimDuncanUK20 Feb 2019 1:27 p.m. PST

Do you have the figure code?

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP20 Feb 2019 2:45 p.m. PST

Are they Highlanders?

John Armatys20 Feb 2019 3:20 p.m. PST

I assume that you are looking at D22b and D22b on this page link

Lawson, A History of the Uniforms of the British Army Volume II says of the Highland regiments … in 1747 the Grenadiers were permitted, according to clothing orders, to wear fur caps instead of the cloth caps worn by the rest of the foot regiments.

Franklin, British Army Uniforms 1751 1783 says the grenadier cap of the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment (Black Watch) after 1747 was bearskin with red plate and white foliate. Grenadier wings were not worn before 1752.

The 43rd was renumbered in 1749 as the 42nd and retitled in 1751 as the 42nd (Royal Highland) Regiment.

I hope that this helps.

Personal logo ColCampbell Supporting Member of TMP20 Feb 2019 3:29 p.m. PST

Here's the 42nd's entry on Kronoskaf. While it doesn't give when the grenadiers adopted fur caps, it does give some information about when it was re-numbered and when it was declared "Royal."

link

Jim

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP20 Feb 2019 11:36 p.m. PST

Thank you to all four.

Yes these are highlanders figures that I was talking about

link

Now I know what are not for the SYW…

Because according to John Armatys as they adopt fur caps in 1747 and their Grenadier their wings only in 1752, so these figurines of grenadiers are valid for the end of the WAS 1747/1748 and until 1751, yes but the rest of the uniform , is it valid for which period? These men did not carry targes in Flanders?

But before 1747, are there not some indications that their grenadiers wore mitres rather than caps?

And the officers and musicians, what uniforms? And how were they equipped and armed,with sword, pistol, dirk and in some cases a musket as well ,but no spontoons or spontoons are reserved for NCO's in the british infantry ?

Rod MacArthur21 Feb 2019 4:11 a.m. PST

British Commanding Officers tended to make their own mind up as to what special distinctions to their uniforms their troops should wear, and more senior officers did not interfere in that.

I spent 30 years in the British Army, and to some extent that still prevails.

I doubt that the concept of Highland grenadiers wearing fur caps was something dreamt up in London. What I think is more likely is that it is what the Commanding Officers of both the 43rd and 64th wanted to do and they may well have introducedit in their Regiments earlier than the official authority in 1747.

There are similar precedents in Napoleonic Wars with the 5th Regiment adopting white plumes several years before they were retrospectively authorised to do so, and them later successfully arguing that this made them into fusiliers.

When I modelled my 43rd and 64th Highlanders for the Jacobite Rebellion and WAS, I gave their grenadiers fur caps (my plastic Redbox figures included them in the pack). See here:

link

Rod

JimDuncanUK21 Feb 2019 12:49 p.m. PST

Good post Rod, nice to read someone who has done their homework.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP21 Feb 2019 11:37 p.m. PST

Very well Rod, but before they are fur caps in 1747 or before , are there any indications that their grenadiers wore mitres rather than caps like their comrades of the other companies?

What did they wear before their fur caps?

Rod MacArthur22 Feb 2019 6:02 a.m. PST

I am in Spain at present, without my hard copy library, but with some electronic information. I think I have seen a modern illustration somewhere showing them in mitres, but i do not know whether this has any historical accuracy.

The original reason for British grenadiers wearing mitres was to make it easier to sling their muskets over their shoulders when throwing grenades. Grenades had of course fallen out of use, so the mitres became a distinction for elite grenadier companies. However Highlanders, wearing Scots bonnets, not tricorns, would not have had that problem. For them a mitre would have been a more awkward headdress than their comfortable and "scrunched down" bonnet.

It is therefore possible that they simply wore the same Scots bonnets as the rest of their battalion.

Rod

AICUSV22 Feb 2019 10:30 a.m. PST

These figures were originally marketed as SYW/F&I what they actually fit may be a totally different story.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP22 Feb 2019 11:39 p.m. PST

@ Rod MacArthur:

Well I prefer the same Scots hats as the rest of their battalion. But what are their uniformity peculiarities compared to the other company of the battalion before 1749?

@ AICUSV:

I had doubts, and it is certain that it changes everything.

Rod MacArthur23 Feb 2019 3:47 a.m. PST

Possibly the only distinction would have been a belt tube, which originally carried matches to light grenades, but remained as a feature of Grenadiers uniforms after grenades themselves had been discontinued.

Rod

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP24 Feb 2019 12:40 a.m. PST

In "THE WAR OF THE AUSTRIAN SUCCESSION – A WARGAMER4S GUIDE – PART II – The UNIFORMS of the BRITISH ARMY – 1739-1748 – by Stefen Manley the author writes page 15 :

"Grenadier had commenced by wearing mitre caps apparently of the usual type, though neither an exemple or a picture survives. By 1744 the fur cap had come into use .".

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