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""They died for Glory" Rule question" Topic


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Decebalus02 Feb 2019 10:56 a.m. PST

Every unit has two activation, but uses his activation also for shooting like "overwatch".

- Can you shoot, when you are active? So, can a Prussian unit shot and than charge? (The rules say, you only shoot when your opponent is moving. But there is an example, that lets Prussians move and than shoot, what is impoosible, if they cant shoot "active".)
- If yes. Who shoots first, if the opponent wants to shoot back? (In Field of Battle the opponent shoots first.)

And i like some opinion for a house rule: I want to try the war of 1866 with these rules. Who should move first? Austrian or Prussians? Or dice every turn?

parrskool03 Feb 2019 12:35 p.m. PST

THEY DIED FOR GLORY
Errata and Clarifications

Q: The Table of Contents states that the French move during Phase 11. Yet Section 1.2 says that Infantry can move twice. When can the French infantry do its second move?

A: The Sequence of Play Table (p 11 of THEY DIED FOR GLORY) tells players when units can perform certain operations, not how many times they can perform a particular operation. If a French infantry unit wishes to move twice, it would perform both operations during Phase 11.

Q: Does a unit have to move its maximum movement allowance?

A: No, the unit can move its full movement or any portion of it.

Q: If a unit declares a charge against an enemy unit that is on Fallback, must the charging unit still test morale (as per Section 4.3)?

A: Yes.

Q: Why do infantry go prone when they receive four or more casualties from small arms fire in a turn, but not from artillery fire?

A: Small arms fire travels in a relatively straight line, hence the desire to duck under it, or go prone. However, it is impossible to duck under artillery fire since it travels in a hyperbolic arc. Therefore, infantry does not go prone when it receives casualties from artillery fire; their natural inclination is to move away from the target area.

Q: If a unit routs why can't it start to rally immediately, instead of waiting until next turn?

A: The 12" Fallback move actually takes the entire turn. Therefore, the unit cannot begin rallying until the next turn.

Q: Assume that a unit fails its morale and falls back 12". If another unit falls back within 4" later in the same turn, does the first unit have to test morale again?

A: No. The first unit is actually falling back 12" during the entire turn. Players move the unit back 12" all at once as a convenience, rather than having to prorate the unit's fall back move during the course of the turn. Since the unit is on Fallback status during the entire turn, it does not have to test its morale again during the turn since it would not be possible to pass a morale test (i.e. the unit is already falling back). However, while the unit is rallying on the next turn, it is subject to another morale check and possible Fallback.

There is one exception to the rule that a unit cannot Fallback more than once in a turn. Section 6.11 states that a unit on Fallback automatically fails its morale test if charged. Therefore, even if a unit has already fallen back 12" that turn, it must automatically Fallback another 12" if charged on that turn. The unit can start its rally on the next turn.

FORMATIONS

Deep Column: The fourth sentence should read: "It's semi-dense formation makes it a slightly more difficult target to hit than a column or a line."

1. MOVEMENT

1.5 Change of Face/Formation

Since Skirmish stands move on an individual basis they can Change Face even if within small arms range of an enemy unit.

Infantry units in Woods can change formation into skirmish order. However, skirmish infantry cannot change formation into a massed formation while in the Woods.

1.8 Reverse Movement

Skirmish units can move backwards at full speed while maintaining their facing towards the enemy.

1.10 Skirmish Infantry

Infantry units that cannot skirmish or move as a Deep Column (e.g. French Sailors) exit a house or building in a disorganized column. They move as a column but melee as skirmishers. A Change of Formation is required to change their formation to either a Column or a Line.

Since Skirmish stands move on an individual basis they can Change Face even if within small arms range of an enemy unit.

Skirmish units can Change Face automatically, without it counting as an Operation. Therefore, they can do an About Face, move back a full move, and then Change Face again. Section 1.8 (Reverse Movement) refers to formed infantry units only.

Engineers and Pioneers operating on a company basis move as skirmish infantry but melee as formed troops (see Section 5.4). If operating as a battalion they move as Line infantry.

1.16 Voluntary Fallbacks

Units that fail morale and Fallback during a turn cannot take a Voluntary Fallback at the end of the turn.

1.18 Terrain and Movement Penalties

Hills: Artillery handpushing uphill moves only 1/2".

Woods: Infantry units in Woods can change formation into skirmish order. However, skirmish infantry cannot change formation into a massed formation while in the Woods.

Obstacles: When an infantry unit crosses a wall or an obstacle it can prorate its movement while approaching the wall or obstacle. For example, an infantry column 3" away from a wall can move at full speed until it reaches the wall at a cost of 3". It has 1 1/2" remaining and is half speed for the entire time that it spends crossing the wall or obstacle. If it cannot complete its crossing in one operation, then it moves at half speed until the last stand has finished crossing the wall or obstacle. Once the entire unit clears the wall it can move at full speed again (e.g. it can prorate its movement after it clears the wall).

2. INFANTRY FIRE

2.1 Firing Procedure

If the center of a formed infantry unit can fire at an enemy unit then the entire unit (including the second rank) can fire, regardless of distance, Line of Sight, or angle of fire. Firing eligibility for skirmish infantry is determined for each stand individually, measuring from the center of each stand.

2.9 Forcing Enemy to go Prone

Infantry units in a house or behind an obstacle do not have to go prone if they receive four or more casualties in a turn from small arms fire.

2.11 Firing Into Melee.

The section number should be "2.11", not "2.1."

2.13 Obstacles and Buildings

All figures in a house can fire out in the same direction (e.g. from the same side of the house).

In order to claim the protective benefits of an obstacle, a unit must be within 1/2" of the obstacle.

2.14 Woods

Infantry more than 1/2" away from edge of Woods can fire a maximum of 4" out of the Woods. They must be at edge of Woods (i.e. within 1/2") to fire their full range. Artillery can fire at infantry which fire out of the Woods (using the "Woods" column during the next artillery phase) if the infantry are more than 1/2" from the edge of the Woods.

2.15 Infantry Fire Table

Note: When firing small arms at limbered artillery, use the "Cavalry Line" column for determining hits.

2.16 Infantry Fire Modifiers

In the first example, the French unit rolls 6 dice, not 5.

2.17 Line of Sight and Overhead Fire

Prone infantry behind walls cannot fire, they must stand up first.

3. ARTILLERY

3.1A Selection of Target

Artillery cannot fire at units that are locked in melee.

3.2 Artillery Handpushes

If artillery does not fire at the beginning of a turn it can take its handpush during the movement portion of the turn.

3.3 Allocation of Fire

A player must declare all artillery shots before firing.

3.6 Line of Sight and Overhead Fire

Walls and rubble do not block Line of Sight (LOS). If a unit enters a Woods, then LOS is lost and artillery cannot fire at the unit until the artillery is within 4" of the Woods or the unit fires out of the Woods.

3.9 Obstacles and Buildings

In order to claim the protective benefits of an obstacle, a unit must be within 1/2" of the obstacle.

If artillery fires through a gap between friendly units, the gap must be at least equal to or greater than the width of artillery stand.

Unlimbered artillery behind obstacles are twice as difficult to hit. Roll HALF the number of dice during the pre-roll to see how many are on target.

3.10 Destruction of Obstacles and Buildings

Guns of 12 lb. caliber and above count as two hits on an Obstacle.

3.11 Engineers and Pioneers

An Engineer/Pioneer company can only reman one Battery even if two Batteries are adjacent to each other. Remanning a battery requires an Operation. The Engineer/Pioneer company must be within 4" of a battery in order to reman it. Once they have remanned the battery they can fire the gun on the next turn. The Engineer/Pioneer company must remain with the battery for the rest of the game.

See section 6.10, below, for the effect on artillerymen of failing a morale test.


4. CHARGE

4.2 Announcing Charges

A unit must be able to see an enemy unit in order to declare a charge.

4.3 Morale Checks

If a unit tries to Charge and fails its morale test it does not Fallback. Instead, it holds its position for that turn. However, the unit can fire.

4.5 Countercharges

A unit can countercharge in support of a friendly unit that is being charged.

4.11 Cavalry

Cavalry can charge infantry in the Woods if the infantry is at the edge of the Woods (i.e. within 1/2" of the edge of the Woods). Cavalry cannot enter the Woods if it wins the melee. Victorious Cavalry can perform a Change of Face/Formation at the end of the melee in lieu of being able to enter the Woods and occupy the defender's position.

The defending infantry will receive a melee modifier (see Section 5.4, below).

4.12 Skirmish Charges

Units in skirmish formation cannot frontally charge massed units. However, they can charge massed units in the flank or the rear. They can also charge other skirmish units and artillery.

Artillery can never charge.

5. MELEE

5.2 Resolving Melees

Example: Prussian Infantry fight at a ratio of 2 dice for every three men (rounding up all fractions). A 19-man battalion would roll 12 dice (for the first 18 men), with the fraction being rounded up for another two dice, for a total of 14 dice.

5.6 Multi-Unit Combats

After the units on a side have rolled their respective melee dice, add up the total casualties on each side to determine the victor. A unit may out roll its individual opponent but still have to retreat if its side received more casualties overall.

5.10 Breakthrough Movement

Example: Prussian and French infantry melee (with the French defending a fortified position) and the melee ends in draw. The French go below 50%, test morale and rout. The Prussians can advance into the French defensive position since they won the melee (i.e. they caused the French to retreat).

5.11 Retreating Units

A unit falling back from a melee must rally just as if it failed a morale test.

5.12 Surrender

If an artillery battery loses a melee the gun and any surviving artillerymen are considered automatically captured. Batteries cannot retreat after losing a melee.

5.13 Charging Infantry in Houses

If part of an infantry battalion is in a house and the remainder of the battalion is outside the house, the entire unit takes part in the melee.

Example #1: A Prussian Battalion of 20 men is partially in a house, with 10 men in the house and 10 men outside the house. If the house is charged by two French Battalions, all 20 Prussians roll against the French. The French must subtract one from each die roll since they are charging the house.

Example #2: Assume the same scenario as above, except that one French Battalion charges the house and the second Battalion charges the Prussians that are outside the house. The first Battalion must subtract one from each die roll since it is charging the house but the second Battalion does not since they are charging the part of the Prussian Battalion that is outside the house.

6. MORALE

6.8 Prone Infantry

The first sentence in Section 6.8 should read "Infantry adds 1 to its Morale Rating when prone".

Prone infantry standing up to face an enemy charge does not receive the +1 modifier (for being prone) when testing morale (see Section 6.4).

6.10 Failing Morale Test

If a unit cannot Fallback, either because it is surrounded by enemy units (see section 5.12) or because of impassable terrain, then the unit surrenders or is considered destroyed.

If a limbered artillery battery fails a moral test the artillerymen Fallback with their gun.

However, if an unlimbered artillery battery fails a morale test, the artillerymen rout back 12" (as skirmishers) and leave their gun behind. The artillerymen can be used to reman other guns after they have rallied.

An abandoned gun can be remanned by an Engineer/Pioneer company. If contacted by an enemy unit before being remanned the gun is considered captured. It can then be remanned by the enemy's Engineers or Pioneers.

6.11 Rallying

After a unit rallies it may start its move in any formation/facing it chooses (this is essentially a free Change of Face/Formation and does not count as an operation).

6.12 Converging Units

Line and Light infantry converging into a new battalion have the morale and capabilities of a Line battalion. Light and Heavy cavalry cannot converge into a new regiment.

Routed units which are waiting (at the baseline of the table) to converge are automatically dispersed if attacked. The attacking unit takes no casualties and its movement is not affected.

Units with an original Morale Rating of 4 have a Morale Rating of 3 after converging. If units with different Morale Ratings converge, and one of them had an original Morale Rating of 4, then the new unit has a Morale Rating of 3.

OPTIONAL RULES

MOVEMENT

Simultaneous Movement: The attached Simultaneous Movement Chart was accidentally omitted from THEY DIED FOR GLORY. A copy is attached at the end of the Errata section. Players must write down their orders for their units at the beginning of the turn for both phases of that turn.

Units cannot Change Face (except skirmishers) or Change Formation if a charging enemy unit is within 3" at the beginning of the turn.

Substituted Orders: If a unit has a written order to charge an enemy unit (using the Simultaneous Movement rules) and the enemy unit disappears before the Movement phase (e.g. it is destroyed by artillery fire, or fails morale test when charged) the charging unit must complete its regular move, since a Charge is defined as a move that contacts the enemy (see Section 4.1). The charging unit can, of course, charge another enemy unit that is within range.

INFANTRY FIRE

Conditional Fire Orders: A unit ordered to "Hold" can substitute an order to Fire.

ARTILLERY FIRE

Artillery Handpushes: Unlimbered artillery can handpush through skirmish infantry immediately prior to firing (without dispersing the skirmishers). Artillery can only take one handpush per turn. The handpush can be taken immediately before firing or during the movement portion of the turn.

Canister Fire: Any artillery battery that does not fire during the Artillery portion of the turn can fire canister during the Infantry Fire portion of the turn. It can take up to a 1" handpush immediately prior to firing. Artillery can only fire canister once per turn.

Point Blank Range Canister Fire: If an enemy unit is within 1" of an artillery battery that is firing canister, the battery adds +2 to all die rolls.

MELEE

Melee Modifiers: Subtract two from each of the unit's die rolls if:

• The unit is skirmish infantry and is meleed by cavalry.

Enfilade Attack: Skirmish infantry cannot claim enfilade bonus. There is no enfilade bonus against units defending behind obstacles.

MORALE

French Republican Units: French Sailors cannot skirmish or use the Deep Column formation.

Prussian Landwehr: Prussian Landwehr infantry are organized into regiments of three battalions; each battalion is represented by four 4-man stands. They fire on the German Infantry Fire Table with a -1 modifier. Their Morale Rating is "4" and they are -1 on Morale when attempting to charge. They can charge in Deep Column or Column formation but do not receive a +1 modifier when charging.

Landwehr Cavalry (Dragoons, Hussars, and Uhlans) are organized and treated as Prussian Cavalry in all respects, except that their Morale Rating is "4".

COMMAND RULES

The following system of mounting figures is suggested for distinguishing between commanders of a Brigade, Division, or Corps:

Brigade Commander: 1 figure (mounted or dismounted).

Division Commander: 2 figures (2 mounted or 1 mounted and 1 dismounted).

Corps Commander: 3 figures (3 mounted or 2 mounted and 1 dismounted).

If a Commander is attached to a unit, he continues to affect all units within his command radius.
Stand Sizes for Command Figures:

Stand frontage Stand
per figure Depth

Infantry 1/2" 1/2"
Cavalry 1/2" 1"

Note: Use Cavalry measurements for stands containing both cavalry and infantry figures. A Division command stand (i.e. two figures) can be placed on a standard cavalry base (1.5" x 1").

ALTERNATE ORGANIZATION FOR FRENCH IMPERIAL UNITS

As an alternative to organizing the French infantry as four 3-man stands, the French Line Infantry, Turcos and Guard battalions can be organized as six 2-man stands to reflect their historical six company organization.

SCENARIOS

Scenario 1: French railroad tracks are 1 contour higher because they were built up for drainage purposes. Since railroad tracks on a hill do not need additional drainage they are still at the 1 contour level and not at level 2.

Scenario 3: The French Order of Battle should read:

1st Corps, 1st Division
12 battalions (9 line, 3 Zouaves), 1 Mitrailleuse battery
1 Chasseur battalion, 2-4pdr artillery batteries

Their Deployment remains the same.

Scenario 4: The French Order of Battle should read:

1st Corps, 1st Division, 1st Brigade
6 battalions, 1 Chasseur Batt., 1 Mitrailleuse battery
1 Corps, 3rd Division & Reserve Artillery
12 battalions (6 line, 3 Zouaves, 3 Turcos), 1 Mitrailleuse battery
1 Chasseur battalion, 2-12pdr, 2-4pdr, 2-4pdr HA

Their Deployment remains the same.

The stream starts off the table and runs through squares E-1, 2, 3, and 4 exits off the Table at E-4.

Scenario 9: The German Victory Condition should read, "The German Player Wins if he captures the following two positions: B-7, 8."

Rules Questions: E-mail me at <Burker1@aol.com> or write to Robert Burke, 1919 Mount Conness Way, Antioch, CA 94531, USA. Please enclose a SASE.

Interested wargamers are invited to join the Yahoo group for THEY DIED FOR GLORY at link


revised: 5/21/16
Add:

A railroad embankment should be treated as a one contour hill. The French railroad tracks were built up about 5 feet high for drainage purposes.

Treating it as a hill, with the proper movement penalties, will solve the problem since cavalry can go up hills.

Infantry charging cavalry:

I doubt that the tactical doctrine of the day called for infantry to charge cavalry but I didn't want to flat out forbid it since there was always a chance that an infantry unit might be able to hit a cavalry unit in the flank or rear, which means that the cavalry could not countercharge.

Decebalus04 Feb 2019 6:54 a.m. PST

Thanks for the Errata.

But they didnt answer my question. Can a unit fire in its movement step? Or can it only fire in the movement step of the opponent?

If the second is right, a prussian unit could never Fire & Move as its two actions, because its movement phase is before the french movement phase. (And a French unit could never Move & Fire.)

Nick Stern Supporting Member of TMP04 Feb 2019 12:48 p.m. PST

The simultaneous movement option takes care of this.

Robert Burke06 Feb 2019 11:27 a.m. PST

I'm the co-author of They Died For Glory. Under Step 5 in the Sequence of Play on page 11 of the rules, the Prussians move while the French fire (the French can fire anytime during the Prussian movement, usually when the Prussians are closest).

Under Step 11, the Prussians can fire while the French move.

To answer Decebalus' question, the Prussians cannot fire and then charge in the same turn. They would have to fire in Step 11 of Turn 1 and then charge in Step 5 of Turn 2.

The French, however, could fire in Step 5 and then charge in Step 11.

However, under the Optional Simultaneous Movement rules, a unit can fire with it's first operation and then charge with it's second operation. I always play with the Simultaneous Movement rules.

For the Austro-Prussian War, I let the Prussians move first and the Austrians move and fire the same as the French.

If anyone has any questions about the rules, they can reach me at Burker1 (at) aol (dot) com.

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