"Frogs?" Topic

The question has arisen: is "frogs" a derogatory and offensive term for the French, or merely a quaint, dated bit of slang?

Should it be prohibited on the forums as a term for the French, or tolerated?

I'm inclined to leave it alone, but your input is welcome.

Well, first, a frog is a single mast, small dinghy …

But, if the term is used actively as a pejorative, then I think it should not be tolerated. If it is used as a third person reference within the context of period appropriate speech then we keep it along with farang, fritz, and fuzzy-wuzzy.

I'm sure the Interwebz has a dictionary of pejorative terms, somewhere. Perhaps we could link to it from the FAQ…

Being of Froggish ancestry, it's never bothered me … but now 'days you can get the bug eye for saying just about anything.

I agree with etotheipi about all such terms.

This does remind us that all people have the shared experience of knowing that there is a hateful word that other people use to describe them.

I can't wait for the public arrival of the gray aliens.

Wouldn't this follow under the same rules for the word Limey?

I have to say that in Canada using "frog" about a person of French-Canadian lineage would be considered offensive

As to Limey, I have to say that I have not heard that used in a long time

Now, tête carrée, that's a different matter – - -

No, it's a historical term. That's what the British Army called the French in the Napoleonic Wars.

A term of endearment?

Many terms for other nationalities/races/ethnicities are offensive.

Applying the convenient label 'historical' doesn't make them less so.

My grandpa was a full-blooded German who saw active duty in WWI (with the US), and the family occasionally would say things like "us Krauts," but I've never been called a Kraut by a non-family member. But it wouldn't bother me.

But "Frog" is indeed offensive to French Canadians (at least the ones I've known…)

From our friends at Wikipedia.

Frog, Froggy, Frogeater
(Canada, UK and U.S.) a French person, person of French descent, or a French Canadian. Before the 19th century, referred to the Dutch (as they were stereotyped as being marsh-dwellers). When France became Britain's main enemy, replacing the Dutch, the epithet was transferred to them, because of the French penchant for eating frogs' legs (see comparable French term Rosbif).

Rosbif/Rosbeef/Bife
The original explanation of the French term rosbif is that it referred to the English tradition of cooking roast beef, and especially to the song "The Roast Beef of Old England".

In Portugal, the term bife (literally meaning 'steak', but sounding like "beef") is used as a slang term to refer to the English. There is a feminine form, bifa, mainly used to refer to English female tourists.[

You know, speaking as a kraut--AKA squarehead, AKA dutchman--(or, looked at the other way, Yank, Yankee, Cracker and doodle) there's no logical end to this.

Would anyone care for a list of terms encompassing every member of the human race who is not one of those using the term? Because almost every group on the planet has one.

Personally, I try not to offend anyone accidentally. And when I'm trying to offend them, I want to get a little more personal than a word for their entire nationality. But anyone who expects me to download a PDF of newly offensive terms every month is going to be deeply disappointed.

We use the term "bife" all the time. I am married to a Brazilian Gaucho and as such bife is used to refer to carne. Never heard it used to refer to a person only Churrasco.

I'm in Canada and would not call someone a frog unless I knew them very well.

Most French would not know, no iidea about it.

I'm proudly 50% Frog.

No, it's a historical term. That's what the British Army called the French in the Napoleonic Wars.

And if that was the topic under discussion then it would be perfectly apt. The problem for me is that the only time I can recall that term being used recently was in a WWII discussion, where the British were referred to as Poms as well. The member doing this is the only poster I've seen using such terms. Since it is entirely possible to contribute to that topic without the frequent use of the words Frog and Pom it causes me to wonder why that member felt it appropriate to do so? It wasn't as though he could claim that those were the names he always used for the French and British because sometimes the word British crept into his posts.

So I'm left with the feeling that the use if those words in that topic was intended to be perjorative, or to get people to ‘bite', as one or two did. Therefore if the context is appropriate Frog/Pom has a valid use, but unless that validity is clearly shown the use of such terms should be prevented.

I remember on the US TV program "All In the Family" Archie Bunker ran through a whole list of "slang" terms for different nationalities. It was interesting to see how people in the US have referred to people "not like me". I had only heard of some of them.

I forgot. I am also, of course, a sepo. And a square and a gringo. And on my father's side, it's fishheads as far back as I can trace.

Rustymusket, I saw about half of two episodes of "All in the Family" but I'll bet Archie had a bunch of slang terms for specific differentiated groups. Most languages have very general few terms for "people not like me." In fact, almost the definition of a group is that they have a single word for everyone who isn't them--Ouslander, foreigner, non-U, leg (non-paratrooper) gentile (non-Jew: or non-Mormon) mundane (neither SF nor fantasy) giorgo (non-gypsy) and so on down the line. It's an interesting aspect of language, and I'm sure someone at Bloomington is working frantically to eliminate it.

And this is now the sixth censorship proposal.

If you think Archie Bunker was bad look up Alf Garnet which is still being aired on Youtube.

I've been Dan the Pom since 1974. I don't have an issue with the term Frog as long as its used to refer to the French rather than French Canadians.

If French members feel its an insult then it is.
Then if those of us who aren't French don't think it an insult, it still is.
But the hard answer is it depends on the context its used in.

I'd recommend leaving it alone. I honestly think determining it depends on whether the phrase or statement it's used within is offensive or not (i.e., use of the phrase taken in context)

If you have to ask if something is offensive, it usually is.

ditto cavcrazy

They need to be referred to as French-Americans, especially the ones who have never been to America.

If it is used as a third person reference within the context of period appropriate speech then we keep it along with refering, fritz, and fuzzy-wuzzy.

Then I might safely site "Colored" or "Negro" troops. But referring to the Tuskegee Airmen as "Eleanor's… well that would be beyond the pale.

But, if the term is used actively as a pejorative, then I think it should not be tolerated.

Amen.

Even the PC, metropolitan élite feel the need to invent perjorative terms for those they don't like or agree with. Thus, "middle-aged white male" – the source of all the worlds troubles. I think that's perjorative (maybe because I am one such). Hopefully, they find "PC metropolitan élite" offensive.

Regardless, it just seems a basic human reaction to find names for those who are different to them in nationality, religion or belief.

DBDD

Then I might safely site "Colored" or "Negro" troops. But referring to the Tuskegee Airmen as "Eleanor's… well that would be beyond the pale.

Well, yeah. I am not familiar with the phrase, but I can probably accurately fill in the blank. There are some terms that are so patently offensive that their use should be curtailed, even as a third person reference in context.

-----

Honestly, I've always had a hard time with this because of my person background and experience with pejoratives used against one half of my heritage.

I would hear the "Polaks" routinely derided in my youth. The ones in my family (of which, only one was Polish, giving rise to first perception of the users – they can only identify one country/ethnic origin from Eastern Europe) spoke at least half a dozen languages, had children (including me!) who were first generation born in a hospital and second generation went to college, and worked as computer programmers, engineers, and US Army intelligence specialists.

It took me several years to figure out that Polack jokes were not self-effacing humour making fun of completely incomprehensible misconceptions about others.

Thus, "middle-aged white male" – the source of all the worlds troubles.

Oh, you mean "deplorables".

"It took me several years to figure out that Polack jokes were not self-effacing humour making fun of completely incomprehensible misconceptions about others."

Good point, etotheipi--because it's not always true of other ethnicities. I can tell you (quite) a few German jokes--and most of the Jewish jokes I've heard were told by Jews. But every "blonde" or "polak" joke I've ever heard was based purely on the stupidity of the target--just those two groups. Evidently the blondes aren't organized.

Point remains, lots of words I wouldn't use I don't care to have an authority figure tell me must not be used. Such people have a very poor track record on knowing when to stop.

If that means I have to listen to someone explain how all Germans are really Nazis about once a month, it's a price I'll pay.

rmaker, you forgot "homophobes" "Islamophobes" "fascists" "male chauvinists" "white supremacists" and "a cancer on the Human race." (Susan Sontag's contribution, that last.)

None of them seems to have meaning any more except "someone the Thought Police dislike." But oddly enough, no one seems eager to put them on a list of prohibited terms. I wonder why?

No, no, no! Middle-aged white males are now known as "gammon" apparently.

So we are, Cerdic--but not in the US, I think, where the word is pretty much unknown even for meat. Interestingly, three different leftist web sites informed me that it wasn't racist--even though specifically based on white complexions--because it wasn't used for people they liked. I would suggest that such people find a copy of Ambrose Bierce's The Devil's Dictionary and look up "African."

Or at least stop saying "hysterical" is inherently, irredeemably sexist.

To return to the original frog. Didn't the French soldiers call themselves "crapauds" or "toads" ? Is this relevant ?

"Thus, "middle-aged white male" – the source of all the worlds troubles."

Oh, you mean "deplorables".

Yep just ask anyone in the media or otherwise who is not a "middle-aged white male" …

Time to go read Lenny Bruce again. His monologue on ethnic slurs remains one the funniest things ever written and the difinitive rebuttal to address those who seek to divide and demean others by perjorative slurs. "How to talk dirty and influence people" should be required reading.

I love all the disingenuous false equivalence arguments being trotted out as straw men. Seems that whiny old white guys just can't be kept down no matter how hard the thought police try, can they? There's first world problems and real problems of second class division. And there is satire to address the situation But still finally, slurs and rudeness (often disguised) from lthe dominant "entitled" strata in reply. Don't get mixed up as to which is which, especially not purposely.

Yes, Aethelflaeda, it's always different when your side does it, because of the purity of motive and high moral purpose pursued by your side's censors at all times.

And all your opponents are fascist, stupid or both.

It must be a very comforting thing to live in such a world.

straw men

the dominant "entitled" strata

So, I meet your skin colour, age, and gender criteria. What in my background makes me dominant and entitled? That is a serious question, and I'd really like to know, since when I hear such things I wonder where and how I missed out.

Seems that whiny old white guys just can't be kept down no matter how hard the thought police try, can they?

Yeah, just a bunch of old, bitter, jaded, curmudgeons !!!! Oh wait ! That's me too !

It is all in the eyes of the beholder Here is a French Government ad using the term "Frogs" to lure busineses from Britain

A Pub in Paris

Wow ! Didn't know the even the French called themselves Frogs !

They don't.

"Rosbif" is a transliteration of "roast beef" into French. It is the complimentary derogatory term the French used for the British.

An idiomatic translation of the sign would be "The Crusty Old Soldiers' Pub – We fought each other in the fields, now it's time to buy each other a round or two". A more snide interpretation might be, "We, the soldiers, are the same. You, who put the politicians in power caused the war."

This is an example of reclaiming a pejorative term by the target.

BTW, frogs is a reference to "them" eating frogs' legs and "us" not. Rosbif is the same.

a French Government ad using the term "Frogs" to lure busineses from Britain[/quote[

And an example of "If you give me a bunch of your money, you can call me what you want. We're much less interested in the late 19th and early 20th century revival of a 14th century term (that came to be a pejorative for other groups in the interim) than in your money."

I see … very interesting. Thanks …