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"This is why China's J-20 can't dogfight US stealth fighters" Topic

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515 hits since 23 Jan 2019
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Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse23 Jan 2019 3:41 p.m. PST

"China's J-20 stealth fighter jet represents a massive milestone for Beijing's armed forces and the first stealth aircraft ever fielded outside the US, but the impressive effort still falls noticeably short in some areas.

The J-20 doesn't have a cannon and represents the only entry into the world of fifth-generation fighters that skips the gun, which has seen 100 years of aerial combat.

Enemy aircraft can't jam a fighter jet's gun. Flares and chaff will never fool a gun, which needs no radar. Bullets rip out of the gun already above the speed of sound and need not wait for rocket boosters to kick in…."
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Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP23 Jan 2019 4:02 p.m. PST

Stealth fighters in a close-in dogfight is analogous to tanks in a FOW game.

emckinney23 Jan 2019 6:36 p.m. PST

If the stealth works, the missiles won't …

Zephyr123 Jan 2019 9:50 p.m. PST

There is always ramming…

Munster23 Jan 2019 10:33 p.m. PST

Didn't they try that already? link

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP23 Jan 2019 10:41 p.m. PST

That's okay.

The F-35 can't really dogfight either.

Lion in the Stars24 Jan 2019 3:20 a.m. PST

@28mm: actually, it's starting to look like Stealth-on-Stealth fights will be short-ranged furballs, with all-axis IR-guided missiles being the 'long-range' threat.

I mean, if J20s can't be tracked by AMRAAMs, then you are kinda stuck with closing to AIM9 range, and then gun range. And conversely, if F22s can't be tracked by AA10s, gotta get to IR missile range.

Tired Mammal24 Jan 2019 5:37 a.m. PST

But how will the US planes fly when the pilots have all been traumatised after the Chinese brick their smart phones?
More than one way to win a conflict.

Tango01 Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse24 Jan 2019 11:32 a.m. PST



Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP24 Jan 2019 12:00 p.m. PST

I just read a techno-thriller novel called 'Empire Rising' written by a US Navy submarine officer-turned-writer (Rick Campbell) about a war with China in the east and south China seas. The scenario depicted is quite chilling because he gave the Chinese a great advantage in cyber warfare. The Chinese were not only able to negate American satellite GPS smart weapons guidance but also disable command and control data-links. This allows their DF-21's and other missiles to sink the entire Pacific fleet including half a dozen carriers. They also somehow infected the brains of the USN submarine fleet's Mk. 48 torpedoes and developed a "sonar pulse" that would render them useless.

It sounds like a mad Chinese admiral's wet dream, but it is an interesting book regardless.

TGerritsen Supporting Member of TMP24 Jan 2019 1:33 p.m. PST

I'm not too worried about the F35. Despite that old silly report about it being beaten by F16 in a flight laws check flight (which was never a dogfight test, just a flight laws check with a spotter plane to test the software presets in the system), it's doing pretty good in actual mock dogfights.


The pilots flying it seem pretty happy, too:


As for this article, it's pretty meaningless. The J20 will stick to missiles rather than guns. Check. The F35B and C don't have guns either, but rather can equip a gunpod which they prefer to use for air to ground attacks, not dogfighting. There's nothing stopping the J20 from equipping a gun pod. However, they aren't supposed to be for air to ground, but air superiority.

Even in Vietnam, which everyone uses as the example for why to include a gun, the majority of air to air kills were by missile in a day when PK rates for missiles were terrible. If I were a fighter pilot, I'd want the gun, but on the other hand, it's not 1968 any more.

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP24 Jan 2019 6:57 p.m. PST

J20s are designed to kill AWACS and tankers, which will greatly restrict US ops, if they're successful at that.

Surprisingly, the F35s gunpods are more accurate than the built in guns, apparently, which is the opposite from Vietnam.

Wonder if the air-to-air gun targeting software development is going according to plan. Last I read it was due sometime after 2020 (2024 seems to come to mind for that). It's one thing to be able to fire the guns, but another for them to hit enemy targets in a furball, and apparently the F35 isn't there yet, or wasn't, last time I checked.

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP24 Jan 2019 8:35 p.m. PST

Here's an article that says the J-20 is an all-around fighter that might do alright in a dogfight.


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