"Proposed: Complete Ban on Politics" Topic

Would you support a complete ban on politics on the TMP main forum?

Politics is defined as "The art or science of government or governing, especially the governing of a political entity, such as a nation, and the administration and control of its internal and external affairs. The activities or affairs engaged in by a government, politician, or political party."

Hard to talk about history without talking about some level of politics.

Is this just in the 10 year rule, or if someone brings up Imperial vs Republican Roman politics are they potentially in trouble?

After all, Clausewitz pointed out 'War is the continuation of politics by other means.'

Ban all politics is one of those things that is far easier to say than to actually enforce.

So questions like "Was nazi Germany doomed to lose WWII due to political mis-management" are right out, then?

"a complete ban on politics" sounds like a noble dream, but not really practical.

If the only people you talk to hold the same opinions as you do, how will you learn anything?

Make the cut-off at 1992. That way, one can safely talk about the political motivation behind the Falklands and even the Gulf War, but after that, everything is still too immediate with lingering consequences.

Of course, this somewhat arbitrary delineator will cheese off a lot of the current crop of current posters, but it'll make the administration and discipline portions of operating the website a lot easier.

Wyatt

What is war if it's not an activity or affair engaged in by a government? So no, that's not going to work is it?

10 Year Rule.
And none of this nonsense of sneaking Politics in under ANY of the Ultramodern Boards.
None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

I would say "goodbye" because violation of the rule is almost inevitable. There is virtually no human activity beyond what some people people feel should be the scope of government. And to say that certain matters are not political would--once the rule is in effect--place me in violation of it.

Understand, I would not quit. But I'd be booted out under any such rule, and it wouldn't take long. Around about next week, someone will be telling me what a nice guy Napoleon was, or how modern Canada just sort of happened without reference to the American Revolution, and off I'll go.

You could probably get away with asking everyone to avoid CURRENT politics--as TGerritsen say, perhaps the present and immediately previous administrations in the US?--and bleeping political asides which do not advance the miniatures arguments.

"Hard to talk about history without talking about some level of politics."

How about a ban on political advocacy? It's one thing to discuss the politics in a dry, non-partisan, non-ideological matter-of-fact way. What usually makes people go at each other's throats is "That's why our government to vote for X or enact policy Y."

Would only work if you also killed ALL global warming topics. Beca;use that subject is totally linked to politics.

Suggest Politics as Last 100 years – after that history

But agree hard to do

Mentioning Obama or Trump should be an automatic 5 day DH.
The euphemism of "current administration" is just like trying to slip one past the Bleep-o-matic.
Any of the Bushes or BILL Clinton are fair game.

If you're going to have a "No Politics" Rule, you have to make it with no wiggle room. No letting someone off the hook just because you discussed with them off line, and then banning the guy who wants to argue with the guy you happen to agree with.

The 10-year rule is pretty safe. I avoid most of the modern war boards because they routinely delve into political topics which is a slippery slope -- I do not remember any of the discussions I have read having anything remotely related to gaming topics, of any sort. Cheers!

That would be hard whether in a historical context or contemporary. Politics is key to strategy, future weapon system development or the combatants in a future war.

Would only work if you also killed ALL global warming topics. Beca;use that subject is totally linked to politics.

+1. I proposed that a few years ago but it got voted down.
My point was that debating it on a wargame site was both silly and pointless. Just how much influence do middle aged gamers have? Enough to influence policy? And of course there's the standard "what does this have to do with miniature wargaming?"
It's as bad, if not worse than debating religion. Both sides are dogmatically right and will not listen to "reason".

I really like what Stryderg said:

If the only people you talk to hold the same opinions as you do, how will you learn anything?

But nobody will "learn anything" if the subject is Trump or Obama. Minds are made up.
There are plenty of other places to "discuss" them.

Politics is the womb in which war develops.

Carl von Clausewitz

I wouldn't support it.

Some type of ban would not be a problem for me. I come here for miniatures and history. As long as the ban would not interfere with the history part, I would be OK with it.

Get ready to ban everyone on the site…

Won't work, as many have already said.

Is this just in the 10 year rule…

The proposal is for a "complete" ban on politics, so I would assume it is universal.

No political discussion of the Roman Republic?
None about General George McClellan and Lincoln?
None about Vietnam?
None about the Napoleonic period?
War of 1812?

Then it's completely pointless.

Not sure I agree. On other toy soldier forums politics does not raise its head. Why here?

Politics? How about all posts need to be about miniatures, rules for miniatures, or ideas related to miniatures gaming? If someone makes a post, and doesn't show how the post is related to gaming, nuke it.

So, that limits us to sculpts, paints, rules, uniforms, basing, and terrain. No history (since history is basically politics) other than maybe tactics, but even then you'd have to be careful not to discuss the why of those tactics if they were politically driven.

Seems like a lot of other places to do that, and probably do that better. I come here for history and to discuss miniatures. The fact that there are so many here with knowledge on specific historical topics (including the politics that drove that history) is a draw to me, not a negative.

I've never been dh'd (knock on wood), love to discuss ultra modern rules, tactics and possible conflicts, and never rise to the occasion to take someone's proffered bait. I don't understand people who can't stay civil in a discussion or just avoid ultra modern if they find it so difficult to keep a civil tongue.

Restrict this page to no more than a glorified Cool Mini or Not with historicals and I'll probably walk away. It would sadden me as this page has brought me much joy through good times and bad, but it would take a draconian approach to remove all politics from a page where historical minis are discussed and that's not something I would be able to support.

I'd say, grow a thicker skin, or a more reserved tongue, or learn to not click on areas you know you can't stop yourself from being uncivil.

I don't even mind the back and forth discussions on climate change. Why? Because I don't bother with those threads. No one holds a gun to your head to click on literally every topic on this page. It's quite possible to simply ignore topics not interesting to you (and there are tools on this page to do it automatically if you can't show the mental discipline to just pass over them).

If it includes the politics of HMGS then half the membership would be banned either right before or after the cons.

I support the 10 year rule. And strict enforcement of it.

No. Other people's wrongbad ideas don't frighten me, especially if I can point out how stupid they are.

I'm with TGerritsen on this.

War is politics by other means, and vice versa.

A complete ban would seem to be impossible unless you plan on banning the discussion of all history too, and events surrounding various conflicts.

Presumably, that also means there can be no discussion on the motivations, actions, and events currently happening as well, in the South China Sea, East China Sea, over issues of Taiwan, Iran, the Middle East, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Venezuela, Central America, etc., etc..

Can we discuss UFOs, and the DIA's involvement/research into them, which seems to be breaking news tonight?

Will you be instituting a "safe room", and/or a "crying room" too?

Will you have to be a supporting member to have access to those, if you do create them?

Would only work if you also killed ALL global warming topics.

But how could anyone possibly talk about history and warfare without talking about man-made climate change?

Historians and some scientists would likely point out that "climate change" has been going on for millennia, even BEFORE man emerged on the planet.

I would vote YES for a total ban that followed the "10 year rule".
Since the Editor has rendered this silly by including ALL politics, I will vote NO.
How can you discuss the American Civil War, the English Civil War, the American Revolution, etc without getting into politics?
His forcing all politics into the ban has emasculated the whole idea.
Other forums are not relevant. TMP has struggled with "politics" for years, and has backed itself into the 10 Year Rule. When it's strictly enforced, with no favoritism, it works. When it's selectively enforced, TMP becomes a laughing stock.

In fact, I think the Editor is deliberately defining it this way as a poison pill to ensure its defeat.

So, does this mean TMP would be flooded with PC's? (Political Commissars) ;-)

It's basically 'current politics' that cause most of the trouble. One site I was a member of shut down their *dedicated* political forum during election seasons (it calmed things down remarkably. ;-)
The few discussions I see on TMP are often quite polite (and don't bother me. There are other political sites I can visit if I want that… ;-)

No, I would not support it for all the reasons listed above.

I would not support it. I am for free speech.

"In fact, I think the Editor is deliberately defining it this way as a poison pill to ensure its defeat."

You just hit the nail on the head. TMP has a reputation on miniature and war game forums for uneven enforcement of the no politics rules. Again why do you see no modern politics and very few banning on TWW, Lead Adventure forum, The Fife and Drum miniatures forum, etc. This is the editors way of proving they are wrong. As to polls proving anything here. The amount of individuals who vote is so small as to mean litte. There is a "gigantic" number of "members" but a small number of posters here.

No

No to all politics, Yes to enforcing the "10 year rule" & no "climate change/warming/cooling" threads.

Monumentally stupid idea in its current form.

Other historical gaming sites that I frequent don't have issues with political discussion. They permit discussion of hobby associated history, and no political advocacy. And I can't remember an political discussion incident occurring on any of those sites.

The difference on TMP is that there is frequently political advocacy shared in posts addressing political issues, and political issues are often addressed for the purpose of advocacy, with no association to gaming, or only using the hobby as a mask to present political bias.

The key is the approach to political advocacy. If TMP would stop permitting the advocacy portion of these discussions, I suspect that there would be little problem here.

I think irishserb has a point. I also think a lot of the unspoken assumptions here revolve around the residents of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. I see plenty about them at other sites, and don't need it here.
On t'other hand, I buy toys from a variety of exotic places like, oh, say, the United Kingdom, and I'm more than politely interested in how Brexit will affect prices and availability at Foundry, Warlord, or even Bad Squiddo. Very political issue in the UK, but I don't think I can count on Fox or even CNN to get down into the weeds and tell me GW prices in the US will go up 10% due to Brexit and I'd better get busy and order that High Elf army right away.

Grelber

Remove the ultra modern warfare board and you'll remove 99.9% of all brakage of the 10 year rule.

Just remind people that there is always the Blue Fez option.

I'm in favor of honest enforcement of the 10 year rule and nuking the ultra modern board.

No. I like a train wreck as well as the next person.

Would only work if you also killed ALL global warming topics. Beca;use that subject is totally linked to politics.

+1. I proposed that a few years ago but it got voted down.
My point was that debating it on a wargame site was both silly and pointless. Just how much influence do middle aged gamers have? Enough to influence policy? And of course there's the standard "what does this have to do with miniature wargaming?"
It's as bad, if not worse than debating religion. Both sides are dogmatically right and will not listen to "reason".

Well when the Pentagon is doing war plans based on the likely effect of climate change maybe it the subject is wargames related.

One side has made climate change a "religious" debate because it seems to be a issue like evolution. (Anyone remember how wishing Charles Darwin a happy birthday degenerated in to a 1,500+ post thread?) When 97% of scientists say the evidence points one way and 3% the other, the science is settled. It's rather like the anti-vaccination debate.

Climate change is not helped by middle-aged curmudgeons being unable to differentiate between climate and weather.

I'm in favor of honest enforcement of the 10 year rule and nuking the ultra modern board.

That's an excellent suggestion. I do not visit the Ultramodern board. I don't game anything after 1880 for land gaming and 1945 for naval so it's not my area of interest and it does seem to be a toxic cesspit.

As with most things, the real "rule" should be a request for respectful behavior.

I encourage posters to remember that:
1.) No, the majority do not automatically agree with your political views.
2.) If they don't, it is not your job to "correct" them, at least not here.
3.) Even if the majority do agree, #2 applies with regards to your treatment of the minority.
4.) If you know it's a hot button and will set people off, don't post it. Seriously, don't be *that* guy.
5.) If you realize that a topic will set you off, don't take the bait. Skip it, and read something else.

In any case, I've discovered that ignoring and stifling solves most of my issues with the trolls here, and makes for a more pleasant TMP. No other actions are necessary, and in fact less direct editor action might be warranted, to remove the "badge of honor" effect some here seem to seek. (Pathetic badge, honestly, but the trolls still seem to want to wear it.)

Just make the rule really clear so no one gets burned undeservedly. I doubt you can make a short, clear rule about what is and is not politics. I'm not sure the 10 year rule helps.