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"Wurttemberg cavalry facing colors?" Topic


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bobspruster20 Jan 2019 1:30 p.m. PST

I have a couple of boxes of HaT Wurttemberg cavalry to paint. I plan to use LaSalle for rules, so I have 3 small units of mounted jagers to paint. Did Wurttemberg have 3 regiments of these guys? And their facing colors were….?

Mike Petro20 Jan 2019 1:35 p.m. PST

link

Pretty much all the info on Wurttemberg you would ever need.

Marc the plastics fan20 Jan 2019 1:57 p.m. PST

Crikey. That is a resource and a half

bobspruster20 Jan 2019 2:34 p.m. PST

Wow! Awesome resource, man. I owe you a milkshake. Thanks very much, Bob

Zippee21 Jan 2019 7:15 a.m. PST

Only 2 Jager zu Pferd regiments I'm afraid

Most of that info is still valid – little has changed in my research over the years.

bobspruster21 Jan 2019 4:16 p.m. PST

Yup, I saw that there were only two regiments, which means 2 "big" units rather than 3 small. I'm sure Mr. Mustafa would be all right with it.

bobspruster21 Jan 2019 4:17 p.m. PST

And an awesome article, btw!

Prince of Essling22 Jan 2019 2:56 a.m. PST

Histofig illustrations:

picture
picture

Prince of Essling22 Jan 2019 5:38 a.m. PST

Also refer to Leo Ignaz von Stadlinger's excellent drawings (of the whole army): link

Zippee23 Jan 2019 4:43 a.m. PST

I guess much depends on the date you're fielding the army for. In the later period the "third smaller unit" might be the dragoon regiment. My interest is firmly in the pre 1812 period so I definitely think of the cavalry arm being 2 regiments of Chevaux Leger and 2 regiments of Jager zu Pferd but the designation of units is far more complex than that!

BTW I've never understood that reference in Histofig plate Wu05 fig 3

It purports to be Regt Prinz Adam in 1814. But that unit is the 2nd Leib Chevaux Leger's new title when it changed to Regt #4 Jager Kavallerie Prinz Adam in 1813. (To add confusion the 1st Regt was briefly Prinz Adam in 1812 but became Leib in 1813). As far as I know the uniform jackets were still blue not green (they certainly received the new helmet as did the 1st Regt and both remained uniformly discrete from the other 3 regiments)

The old 1st Chevaux Leger (briefly Herzog Heinrich in 1807 and Prinz Adam in 1812) became Regt #1 Leib Jager Kavallerie in 1813, the Herzog Louis Jager zu Pferd became Regt #3 Jager Kavallerie Herzog Louis in 1811 and the Konig Jager zu Pferd became Regt #4 Jager Kavallerie Konig in 1811 and then Regt #5 Jager Kavallerie in 1813

The 'other' cavalry regiment was the Kronprinz Dragoons raised during and after the 1809 campaign. It was designated as Regt #5 in 1811 and then changed to Regt #3 Dragoon Kavallerie Kronprinz in 1813 and again to Regt #3 Jager Kavallerie Kronprinz in 1815.

Essentially the army was expanded following joining the Confederation in 1806, which really meant adding 2nd battalions to the musketeer regiments and increasing the squadron count in the 4 cavalry regiments. 1809 saw the addition of the 8th musketeer regiment and the dragoon regiment – mainly due to activities in the Tyrol.

Uniforms were changed wholesale in 1806, there was a further sweeping change in 1811 when inhaber titles were purged (except for the royal family), coats lost the half-lapel look and plumes were abolished.

The final change was in 1812/13 with the replacement of helmets and updating of old shakos for a new standardised shako throughout (except for cavalry regiments #1 and #3 (the old Chevaux Legers) which received a new style helmet in 1813.

There were expansions in the Royal and Household Guard as well mirroring this but those units never saw the field (except for the artillery – the senior companies of both being 'Guard' or 'Household' by nomenclature for prestige purposes)

Prince of Essling23 Jan 2019 7:37 a.m. PST

According to "Das Koniglich Wurttembergische Heer 1806-1871" by Herbert Hahn publisher Deutsche Gesellschaft fur Heereskunde 1994 – the cavalry changes were (I will ignore prior to 1811 unless others want the evolution):

Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 1 Chevalegers Prinz Adam
1813 Leib Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 1

Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 2 Leibchevaulegers
1813 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 4 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Prinz Adam

Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 3 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Herzog Louis
1813 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 2 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Herzog Louis

Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 4 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Konig
1813 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 5 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd

Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 5 Dragoner Kronprinz
1813 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 3 Dragoner Kronprinz

Zippee23 Jan 2019 8:05 a.m. PST

I think (except my omitting the final evolution of Herzog Louis from #3 to #2 in 1813) that's the same evolution.

Nomenclature is different however, my references [many and several] definitely used the form Jager Kavallerie Regt ## and omitted the zu Pferd from 1813 (the dragoons following suit in 1815 – which you don't cite, is that because you've curtailed at 1813 or because DKW doesn't agree?) but translation and nomenclature precision is often questionable.

I do note however that you don't include the 1st Regt as Jager in 1813 whilst my notes use the same 'Jager kavallerie' nomenclature for all. So that is interesting in that it indicates that 2nd CL now 4th JzP was folded into the Jager class whilst 1st remains somehow distinct. I'd understood that both the old CL regiments remained distinct.

My notes definitely indicate #1 and #4 received new helmets not shakos in 1813 which would seem odd if #4 was now another jager regiment. That may be an error.

if you check the link above I give the evolution as understood by me – if DKW disagrees with the earlier evolution I for one would appreciate the evolution prior to 1811 (I basically lose interest in 1811 :))

Prince of Essling23 Jan 2019 2:27 p.m. PST

@Zippee

Full evolution as shown in "Das Koniglich Wurttembergische Heer 1806-1871"as requested and sincere apologies as was too speedy with cut and paste of "Jager-Regiment zu Pferd" when should have used just Jager in a number of instances!!!

Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 1 Chevalegers Herzog Henrich is listed as follows:
1798 Reiter-Regiment
1802 Chevaulegers-Regiment
1805 Vacant Chevaulegers-Regiment
1807 Chevalegers-Regiment Herzog Henrich
1811 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 1 Chevalegers Prinz Adam
1813 Leib Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 1
1816 Leib Kavallerie-Regiment
1817 1. Reiter-Regiment

Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 2 Leibchevaulegers evolution:
1805 Leib-Regiment Chevaulegers
1811 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 2 Leibchevaulegers
1813 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 4 Jager Prinz Adam
1816 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 4
1817 4. Reiter-Regiment

Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 3 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Herzog Louis evolution:
1805 Leichtes Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Prinz Paul
1807 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Prinz Paul
1811 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 3 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Herzog Louis
1813 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 2 Jager Herzog Louis
1816 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 2
1817 2. Reiter-Regiment

Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 4 Jager Konig evolution:
1806 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Konig
1811 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 4 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Konig
1813 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 5 Jager
1816 dissolved

Dragoner-Regiment evolution:
1809 Dragoner-Regiment Kronprinz
1811 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 5 Dragoner Kronprinz
1813 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 3 Dragoner Kronprinz
1815 Jager-Regiment zu Pferd Nr 3 Kronprinz
1816 Kavallerie-Regiment Nr 3
1817 3. Reiter-Regiment

Zippee24 Jan 2019 4:23 a.m. PST

Many thanks for that Prince Essling

#1 that follows my secondary sources, except I have it noted as 'vacant' in 1811, Prinz Adam in 1812 – most changes happen in 1811 so DKW is probably right on that.

#2 agreed. I will need to look into the uniform question a bit more though, particularly I need to check the citation that they were issued a new *helmet* in 1813, seems odd if it was now jager and re-uniformed in green.

#3 interesting, I have it noted as Herzog Louis in 1807 – you note a change of title dropping the 'leichtes'. Sounds like a copyist error to me in the secondary sources.

#4 & 5th the secondary sources agree with DKW

Prince of Essling24 Jan 2019 7:04 a.m. PST

From Heers und Tradition (will dig out later "Das Koniglich Wurttembergische Heer 1806-1871" and see what it has to say):

picture

Zippee25 Jan 2019 3:59 a.m. PST

thanks for that

It seems pretty clear that only the leib kavallerie retained it's visible identity following the rebuild in 1813/14

The notation I have regarding the new helmet issued to regt #4 (ex #2) must be an error

Kirk Yaro14 Oct 2021 5:43 a.m. PST

Does anyone know if Jager zu Pferd regiments had standard-bearers in 1809?

Prince of Essling14 Oct 2021 9:21 a.m. PST

From Rawkins:

"CAVALRY STANDARDS
The Württemberg cavalry regiments were not issued with any standards until 1813 when the two chevauxleger regiment each received a standard for each squadron in the 1811 orders. The standards were of identical pattern to those of the 1811 infantry issue and measured 85 cm square with a 6 cm gold fringe and were yellow for the 1st Regiment and scarlet for the 2nd Regiment.

On 17th May 1809 under the command of Oberst Graf von Waldberg, the Jägerregiment zu Pferd ‘Herzog Louis' charged and captured four Austrian cannon at the Battle of Linz in a daring night time assault which was pivotal in turning the tide of the battle in the French army's favour.

Graf von Waldberg and his regiment were commended to King Frederick for the regiment's part in the action. The King subsequently authorised a subscription fund to present the regiment with an ‘Ehrensstandart', an honour standard which appears to have been presented sometime in 1813. The standard was a vexillum of gold silk with a deep gold fringe and was mounted on a polished black staff with a gilded eagle pike head in imitation of Imperial eagles of the Napoleonic French army. The field of the standards was decorated with a central laurel wreath motif enclosing the Royal FR cipher in gold, with Royal crown in true colours above and the cross of the Militär-Verdienst-Ordens below. The corners were decorated with small ermine capes of red with true colour crowns above and the Royal cipher on the field.

The standard does not appear to have been carried by the regiment for any purpose prior to 1815 although the illustration on this page shows both the standard and eagle in 1817. It is believed that the flag was stood up at the Royal Palace at Stuttgart until after the close of hostilities in 1814."

But that said there are other sources which suggest standards/vexillums – will need to look further.

Kirk Yaro14 Oct 2021 10:41 a.m. PST

Thank you, Prince of Essling!

One more question: I'm making a regiment of Württemberg Herzog Louis for 1809 and can't find a decent picture of it's officer's uniform… Could you help me please?

Prince of Essling14 Oct 2021 1:31 p.m. PST

@Kirk Yaro,

Best illustration is by Seele/Ebner at link
The officer is second from the left.

There is another illustration (by Knotel) which has the officer in buckskin coloured breeches.

picture

picture

Rawkins has
"The Jägerregiment zu Pferd ‘Herzog Louis' wore the distinctive ‘scharawaden' breeches from 1805 to 1810; parti-coloured breeches with the upper part to midthigh yellow and the lower legs grass-green, a fashion popular with light cavalry in the mid-18th Century. The insides of the thighs had black leather inserts. These breeches were worn with the Hungarian style boots until replaced with plain grass-green breeches in 1811."


Ian

Prince of Essling15 Oct 2021 12:58 p.m. PST

John H Gill "With Eagles to Glory Napoleon and his German Allies in the 1809 Campaign" – foot note 14 to Chapter 3 "All the King's Men" says that Herzog Louis was in the process of switching to plain dark green breeches . They had previously worn scharawaden, rather unusual hose which consisted of yellow breeches with dark green leggings from the ankle to the upper thigh…" Sources given as John Cook "The Wurttemberg Line Cavalry ". Empires, Eagfles and Lions, nos 91, 92,93. Otto vob Pivka's "Armies of the Napoleonic Era" pages 263-264. George Nafziger "The Wurttemberg Army" page 57.

Back to Standards – just had a look at "Empires, Eagles and Lions no 94" John Cook says
"Almost every popular describes standards for the two chevauleger regiments. They are usually described as pattern 1811, and like the colours conferred on the infantry. The same description can be found in the Rawkin's book, Terrance Wise's "Flags of the Napoleonic Wars", and Otto von Pivka's "Armies of 1812". All repeat the same description, and other than that they have something else in common, all are wrong. I wonder what their original source was? Having said that, I confess to having repeated the mistake, as does John Henderson in his article in NA Journal No 22, as he does, Rawkin's as a source.

Standards of one type or another were conferred upon every regiment, not just chevauleger as stated in all popular sources, except Jager Regiment zu Pferd Nr 4 (Konig). The scale of issue was one per squadron, except in Jager Regiment zu Pferd N 3 (Herzog Louis) which had a single vexillum standard.

………Pattern 1809 Ehrenstandarte 1 to Jager Regiment zu Pferd Herzog Louis"

However later in the article this was only presented on 10 May 1810.

Cook gives his sources as "Flags and Standards of the Wurttemberg Army 1806-1918" Feldzeichen des Königlich Württembergischen Heeres – Handbuch der Fahnen und Standarten 1806 bis 1918 link , Rigo & Stadlinger, plus surviving examples which are in fairly pristine condition compared with their infantry counterparts, which he surmises due to some of them probably having been left behind when the regiments went on campaign.

Kirk Yaro17 Oct 2021 5:54 a.m. PST

Thank you very much for your help, friends!

Actually, I don't like those yellow-green scharawaden, but as I'm focusing on 1809, should have them painted that way…

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