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"US sub commander torpedoed" Topic

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1,138 hits since 12 Jan 2019
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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian12 Jan 2019 12:57 p.m. PST

A Navy submarine commander was disciplined and demoted last summer after admitting to paying for female prostitutes while stationed in the Philippines…


Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP12 Jan 2019 2:05 p.m. PST

How really stupid that the Navy would crap on a guys career over sex.

Winston Smith12 Jan 2019 2:28 p.m. PST

In this day and age, with officers having access to so much Secret data?
Setting himself up for blackmail. Honey trap.
I'm sure he was briefed on the consequences.
The Navy has many more officers than they have ships for them. He's a grownup.

Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP12 Jan 2019 2:59 p.m. PST

Basically it says to me heterosexual sex is bad.

Personal logo Andrew Walters Supporting Member of TMP12 Jan 2019 4:44 p.m. PST

It's not necessarily that it was heterosexual, since it was also illegal, indiscreet, and if the article is accurate pretty flagrant. If he visited a regular girlfriend in the Philippines it might have been very different. This kind of extreme behavior is going to get talked about, remembered, and it's going to become the one thing everyone knows about that officer. Lastly, if you know that kind of behavior will get you in trouble and do it anyway, it says something about you – either about your commitment or your self-control or something.

So I'm sorry it happened, but I can't see it as unjust.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian12 Jan 2019 4:45 p.m. PST

Basically it says to me heterosexual sex is bad.

Try it some time. grin

Striker12 Jan 2019 4:54 p.m. PST

Gee when I was there the fleet pulled in and I witnessed many, many sailors paying for sex. It wasn't a secret.

Oberlindes Sol LIC12 Jan 2019 5:18 p.m. PST

Sailors and officers are held to different standards. As Winston Smith indicated, a submarine commander knows enough secrets that we don't want them get into situations in which they could be compromised.

Andrew Walters also makes a good point about knowing the negative consequences and going ahead anyway. That's bravery if you're going to save the lives of others, or win a battle, or something like that. It's not bravery if you're just going to enjoy yourself.

USAFpilot12 Jan 2019 5:48 p.m. PST

Is he married? If so, he should lose more than just his command.

Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP12 Jan 2019 5:57 p.m. PST

Yup back in the 80's and 90's you drank beer, fist fights and overseas went to the Bleeped text houses. Things have changed and not for the better.

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP12 Jan 2019 6:52 p.m. PST

Try it some time.



darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP12 Jan 2019 6:54 p.m. PST

Yup back in the 80's and 90's you drank beer, fist fights and overseas went to the Bleeped text houses.

Yeah, that was my USN dad (bosun) in the 60's and 70's. Of course, my dad was also an asshole.

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP12 Jan 2019 7:32 p.m. PST

Like public officials, ranking service members are held to certain standards of behavior. Conduct unbecoming of an officer constitutes grounds for demotion or other disciplinary action. They happen more often than you may think, and are not just limited to the military either. Giving in to such base impulses not only compromises one's duty (and national security) but also says a lot about their character and integrity.




jdginaz12 Jan 2019 9:18 p.m. PST

It was stupid in the '80s and '90s and it's stupid now.

Lion in the Stars12 Jan 2019 9:39 p.m. PST

The problem is that he could be blackmailed over visiting the 'houses-of-negotiable-affection'.

Blackmailed into leaking classified data.

And that's all it takes. Could. Not 'was getting blackmailed over having done something stupid', could.

Striker12 Jan 2019 9:52 p.m. PST

The navy doesn't seem to take the telling of secrets very seriously considering past incidents.

carne6812 Jan 2019 9:58 p.m. PST

I must have missed when Prostitution became illegal in the Philippines. If it is legal, then I don't see the problem. If he was married, I understand there are regs against adultery.

Rakkasan13 Jan 2019 12:09 a.m. PST

While such behavior may have taken place in the 80s and 90s, solicitation of a prostitute regardless of the country the military member was in was a violation of Article 134 in the various editions of the Manual for Courts Martial going back at least to 1984.

Public enforcement may not have been common in the 80s and 90s and enforcement may have been done quietly or pursued in other ways.

Winston's comments are also valid. Reckless, irresponsible behavior leaves one vulnerable to being co-opted by third parties or a leader's own crew.

23rdFusilier Supporting Member of TMP13 Jan 2019 12:40 a.m. PST

"Try it some time. grin"

Well played sir well played…

Lion in the Stars13 Jan 2019 2:36 a.m. PST

At least today, Article 134 is the 'General Article' (anything not covered under a separate article, and usually defined as "anything that makes the military look bad"). If there were standing orders about not visiting the ladies-of-negotiable-affection, that would fall under Article 92.

My guess is that this one fell under Article 133, Conduct Unbecoming an Officer and a Gentleman initially, then whatever else came up if there was an attempt at a cover-up.

Rakkasan13 Jan 2019 3:35 a.m. PST

Prostitution is mentioned specifically in the Manual for Courts Martial:
PDF link
Scroll down to page 26.

Winston Smith13 Jan 2019 8:31 a.m. PST

From Lion in the Stars to Article 134, notes regarding "conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman";

(3) Examples of offenses. Instances of violation of this article include knowingly making a false official statement; dishonorable failure to pay a debt; cheating on an exam; opening and reading a letter of another without authority; using insulting or defamatory language to another officer in that officer's presence or about that officer to other military persons; being drunk and disorderly in a public place; public association with known prostitutes; committing or attempting to commit a crime involving moral turpitude; and failing without good cause to support the officer's family.

Surely an officer COMMANDING A SUBMARINE must be aware of this. Did he skip those classes at the Academy?

As I said above, there are way more officers available than there are slots to fill. This officer disqualified himself for at the very least being dumb and getting caught.
So, knowing it's s violation, and having Top Secret clearance (to command a submarine, he certainly does) he just opens himself up to blackmail.

Winston Smith13 Jan 2019 8:33 a.m. PST

Was he in uniform when he visited the house of ill repute?

JMcCarroll13 Jan 2019 1:55 p.m. PST

Was he in uniform when he visited the house of ill repute?
Not sure, but he was at attention.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian13 Jan 2019 3:49 p.m. PST

I must have missed when Prostitution became illegal in the Philippines…

"Prostitution in the Philippines is illegal, although somewhat tolerated, with law enforcement being rare with regards to sex workers. Penalties range up to life imprisonment for those involved in trafficking, which is covered by the Anti-Trafficking in Persons Act of 2003."


Lion in the Stars13 Jan 2019 5:51 p.m. PST

You guys do know that a submarine commanding officer has been in the Navy for about 20 years, right?

He should have known better, and if he visited a house of ill repute during a port visit in the PI, that's on his own head.

Certainly helps cut down on the competition for full bird Captain slots.

CFeicht Supporting Member of TMP13 Jan 2019 7:59 p.m. PST

Full bird Captain.

Personal logo 28mm Fanatik Supporting Member of TMP14 Jan 2019 1:51 p.m. PST

If it's a full-bird colonel it must be Colonel Angus.


Playing "submarine" can be detrimental to a military career.

Sundance14 Jan 2019 4:59 p.m. PST

All US uniformed services are cautioned against the use of prostitutes in foreign countries due to the huge upsurge in human trafficking.

Winston Smith16 Jan 2019 5:13 p.m. PST

Lets not pass over the fact that he hired 10 of them.
Even on my best day, I could only …… grin

Oberlindes Sol LIC24 Jan 2019 1:30 p.m. PST

public association with known prostitutes

"May it please the Court, my client Captain Kirk is charged with violating section 3 of Article 134, specifically, 'public association with known prostitutes.' Now, the Judge Advocate is not going to be able to prove every element of this offence, and at the conclusion of the presentation, we will be asking you to acquit.

"First of all, Captain Kirk did not publicly associate with any prostitute. All of his meetings with the women alleged herein were in his private hotel accommodations, or in the private apartments of those women.

"Second, none of the women alleged herein were known to be prostitutes. In fact, all of them were careful to be known in all official records and in social media by their regular occupations -- masseuses, aromatherapists, and elementary school teachers, for the most part.

"Thank you."

Murvihill26 Jan 2019 11:18 a.m. PST

A big deal in the US government right now is human trafficking (slavery). Federal employees (including the military) are specifically enjoined from encouraging it by frequenting businesses that commonly force employment. Guess what the most common business is?

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