"The 1 Thing You Would Change About Historicon is..." Topic

You were asked – TMP link

If You Could Change One Thing About Historicon…

And in the final round:

25% said "find a nice venue that is both affordable and well maintained"
17% said "allowing anyone into the dealer hall"
10% said "nice venue within shuttle-bus distance of an airport"

It looks like 17% of those that took the poll have a poor grasp of the economics involved in running a wargame convention.

But 36% voted none of these or no opinion…

"It looks like 17% of those that took the poll have a poor grasp of the economics involved in running a wargame convention."

I'm assuming what that refers to is allowing people who come just to shop not to have to pay for the privilege.

Or maybe give them a different colored badge that just allows shopping at a reduced convention rate, but then the rub is this would get abused and some would try to play in games and gamemasters don't want the hassle or responsibility of tossing those individuals out of their games.

From what I've seen, the day tripper traffic on Saturday is for the most part a thing of the past, so it really doesn't matter at this point anyway.

Yep, but the vendors have already paid for the vendor hall costs and then a huge chunk of the rest of the con. Sure I think my customers should get in for free or for a nominal fee. Police badges elsewhere in my mind. I know this will never happen, but I dream…..

Yep, but the vendors have already paid for the vendor hall costs and then a huge chunk of the rest of the con.

Sorry but that statement is blatantly wrong, as a quick peek at the HMGS site will show. Vendor fees amounted to about 33% of all revenues for the last Historicon in 2018.

It costs money to organize any convention, and that includes putting all the vendors into one convenient place for the shopping to take place. Letting in shoppers for free is a stupid idea that will undercut HMGS's ability to run the cons.

"Letting in shoppers for free is a stupid idea that will undercut HMGS's ability to run the cons."

And charging them 30.00 to shop on Saturday and 15.00 on Sunday thus keeping them away is also a stupid idea.

Yep, but the vendors have already paid for the vendor hall costs and then a huge chunk of the rest of the con. Sure I think my customers should get in for free or for a nominal fee. Police badges elsewhere in my mind. I know this will never happen, but I dream…..

With all due respect BTC, vendors paid roughly 33% (as Bowman previously pointed out). This leaves the other 67% paid by people like me.

The vendors are an important part of the HMGS conventions. A very important part. However, they are not the only part of the convention package.

The vendor hall is not the only reason people come to the HMGS conventions. The convention is a consists of Gaming (casual and tournament). Friends. Dealer Hall. They are all important. They support each other. A convention comprised of strictly dealers – with no gaming – probably wouldn't gain much traction.

That being said, let's hope that 2019 offers us a better year than 2018 did – both personally and professionally.

And charging them 30.00 to shop on Saturday and 15.00 on Sunday thus keeping them away is also a stupid idea.

And that, my friend, is why there are Internet Sales. Anyone who wouldn't buy from you because they have to

(A) pay either an admission to enter a convention or

(B) pay shipping

is someone you're not going to get allot of sales from anyhow.

And charging them 30.00 to shop on Saturday and 15.00 on Sunday thus keeping them away is also a stupid idea.

False equivalency. One undercuts the ability for HMGS to run the conventions and the other one doesn't.

I see TheKing30 beat me to the other point. Some people are not well served by going to a convention that clearly is not for them.

To add to what I said earlier….

The dealers are important to HMGS. I can't tell you how many times I've visited the dealer hall, seen the product and then ordered a couple of weeks later when my budget allows for it.

Too many times our tone and appreciation get lost in a post or an email. I'm very appreciative of the dealers and the sacrifices they make. I just believe that the conventions and the dealer hall are a perfect partnership and need to support each other.

Funny thing, but this thread essentially asked for our opinion. I gave mine but then get jumped on about it. Sorry if differs from others.

There is a way to make different types of entries if there is a will. Everyone talks about attendance numbers, but how many more might attend to drop into the vendor hall? Also, the vendor hall was much smaller for Historicon this year due to space limitations. In the past, the vendor hall was up to 40% of the revenue (I have been a vendor for over 20 years).

Yes there are bunches of parts that go into a show and that is not lost on me. Just me simple opinion.

Funny thing, but this thread essentially asked for our opinion. I gave mine but then get jumped on about it. Sorry if differs from others.

If I appeared to jump on you, I'm sorry. That wasn't my intention (I flunked "How to Make Friends and Influence People"). I guess this is one of those things that people will never agree on.

But – if two people always agreed, one isn't needed.

Funny thing, but this thread essentially asked for our opinion. I gave mine but then get jumped on about it. Sorry if differs from others.

With all due respect you made a statement that was incorrect and that was politely pointed out to you.

You gave an opinion and then I provided mine. Where were you jumped on? That certainly was not my intent.

In the past, the vendor hall was up to 40% of the revenue (I have been a vendor for over 20 years).

Agreed, and that was at Fredericksburg, I believe. Falling attendance provided a shortfall of convention revenue and therefore the vendor revenue increased to about 38-40% There was also very little profit on that show. There was a significant increase in attendance during last years Historicon and that drove down the percentage of vendor revenue.

What would you suppose would happen by allowing free access for any shopper? How would that impact general revenue and the percentage of vendor revenue for the cons? It's a dumb idea that will damage the conventions. And that's why it's been like this throughout all the BOD's over the years.

I've been an attendee for the last 20 years.

Bowman, I understand your point, but while I may not agree with everything you state, I will not resort to calling it stupid or dumb (and thus usually applied to the source of the comment you want to shout down). I have been attending the shows since the Penn Harris, so I attended for many years before becoming a vendor (and for me 75% of my reasons to attend were the vendors). And yes the revenue % was high back in the old Historicon Host days too (when the show costs were lower than they are today for a number of reasons which include that our shows have changed over the years). It is still a significant chunk of change that pays for a lot more then the space used by the vendors.

I was earlier told that by one of the above responses that if someone was not willing to pay the price to get in, they likely would not come and shop anyway, and it would likely not increase attendance. If that is the case, and I am told most folks go to game, wouldn't the same number of attendees also pay to play? Thus the attendance there to game should not change, but there is a chance for the vendors to sell more which could mean it can become a growing revenue source.

Hey I do not have all of the answers, but I do like to toss around ideas for consideration. But in the end, civil conversation is healthy!

It's just as much an understanding of basic economics to charge the same thing to someone who wants to come for a few hours and shop as you charge someone who comes and plays games and spends all kinds of time there. If you rob a group long enough, you drive it away, and eventually, you drive the dealers away if they can't sell enough stuff.

This strikes me the same as so many other things, where giant perceived threats are built up out of tiny things. Just how many people who come and pay full admission now wouldn't do that if they could just go to the dealer hall for free/less?

I'd wager we're talking a small number.

"If you rob a group long enough, you drive it away, and eventually, you drive the dealers away if they can't sell enough stuff".

This is already happening and will likely accelerate soon. Thus I am trying to think out of the box. It is just basic economics.

Just for laughs and giggles, how much of the attendance would be lost without a strong vendor area? 50%? More? If/when that happens, how much will it cost to attend the show for games and flea market only? Just asking.

Simple things such as wrist bands could be used to identify discounted day trippers (or vendor only visitors). So what if we only gain 100-200 more folks, how does that hurt the games? In the end it could help many of the vendors help offset the ever rising overhead to attend.

But in regards to the number, we will not know until it is tried. There might even be extra cross over potential from model railroaders, toy soldier collectors, dioramists and even history buffs. Sure would be a great way to introduce folks to the hobby that are not really even aware of it's existence. Nothing tried, nothing gained.

Doug touches on a good point, the one day pass for the dealer could tap into a whole customer base that doesn't primarily game . To the extent that supports the dealers and doesn't cost revenue , it's a good thing. The alternative is to bleed dealers who both subsidize the show and draw attendees. If they go, there is no con. It's that simple

Just a slightly different perspective – from someone who has been on both the hobby participant and hobby business side of the equation for many years. Using a model…

HMGS presents what is essentially a 3-day event and charges US$30. A participant who pays the 3-day admission price is there for some extended period of time to do what he-she wants (play games, shop dealers, shop flea market, socialize, visit the local area, etc…) and will also spend whatever $ he-she wants over an extended time period of 2-3 days. The value proposition of this starting point is the baseline for any other considerations.

If a gamer wants to attend the convention for only 1-day to play games it makes no sense to charge them for 3-days. The convention organizers realize life is what it is and not everyone can take 2-3 days out of their schedule whenever HMGS schedules an event.

If someone wants the convenience of shopping in-person for 1-day only and they choose not to avail themselves of all the convention offers but still benefit from the convention's dealer hall, this attendee should pay for that specific convenience. If they don't want to pay for it they have an internet option and they save by not having to spend anything to attend the convention and can put more $ towards their internet purchase.

The convention organizers ultimately decide they want to encourage both types of 1-day traffic, gamers and shoppers, so they decide to offer a one-day ticket for US$10 that allows for shopping and gaming.

So there are consumer choices… US$30 for the whole event, US$10 for a single day of the event if that is what a consumer wants, or no entry fee and folks can shop the internet and game locally at-home.

Convention organizers charge dealers whatever per-table fee they estimate covers the actual cost of the dealer hall if all dealer's tables are sold. So that space pays for itself while adding to the convention's overall appeal. If a pattern emerges where dealers don't purchase all the available tables, then organizers eventually have to raise table fees and/or decrease the dealer hall size. Either way, it is driven by the reality of the marketplace including what dealers have to offer consumers.

Seems rather clear-cut to me.

ps – this model relies on reasoned and reasonable HMGS decisions concerning spending and the convention(s), nothing about this model accounts for bad decisions or other actions and spending by HMGS decision-makers… as it shouldn't.

" The alternative is to bleed dealers who both subsidize the show and draw attendees. If they go, there is no con. It's that simple"

Not necessarily.

There will still be a convention, minus the dealer hall, so the cost to attend to "game, see old friends and shop in the flea market" is going to cost more than 25.00 for the weekend.

As in a lot more.

As MinBiz points out, the dealer booth costs pay for the rental of the tennis barn/function hall.

I would also assume there is money left over that goes towards the rental of the Host function rooms as well, so in effect, the dealers are paying a portion of the convention cost beyond the dealer hall.

I could be wrong on that and the money charged per booth only covers the cost of the tennis barn.

If that is the case, then attendance will suffer, there is a certain percentage of attendees who come specifically for the dealer hall and not to "game, see old friends and shop in the flea market."

Speaking for myself; when I first started attending HMGS conventions back in the late 1990's, I was heavily into 20mm WWII and I would drop 1,000.00 to 1500.00 in the dealer hall three times a year.

If there was no dealer hall, I would not attend as I have never (as in once) gamed.

If you lose a chunk of the attendees who come mainly for the dealer hall, then again, your cost to "game, see old friends and shop in the flea market" is going to go up.

" The alternative is to bleed dealers who both subsidize the show and draw attendees. If they go, there is no con. It's that simple"

Not necessarily.

There will still be a convention, minus the dealer hall, so the cost to attend to "game, see old friends and shop in the flea market" is going to cost more than 25.00 for the weekend.

As in a lot more.

So…. the dealers are all going to pull out because HMGS isn't giving shoppers free admission? Isn't that a pretty broad brush you're painting with?

Let's step back for a second. So "shoppers" don't want to pay 25.00 – 30.00 to gain admission to a miniatures convention – to buy miniatures related products? You're not seeing anything wrong with that?

Dude – people spend more than 30.00 on lunch. Let's be real here.

You and BTC are two people that I normally agree with. You guys provide a valuable service and quality product at a very reasonable cost. And most of us respond the way that consumers should – by giving you the favor of our business.

But on this issue, hard as I may try, I just don't see the logic behind it. Maybe we need to sit down with a nice pastrami sandwich and hash this out.

A Sunday shopping badge should cost like $5. USD 1, it would help out dealers on a slow day they have to be there for. 2, everything is already picked over by that point. 3, its only opened for 3 hours on Sunday.

TSD – I think you have a great idea there!

"So…. the dealers are all going to pull out because HMGS isn't giving shoppers free admission? Isn't that a pretty broad brush you're painting with?"

No, the dealers aren't going to pull out because of that, they're going to pull out when the cost of doing the show/time away from their business is not offset by a high enough net profit.

HMGS conventions are no different than any other convention; if you're not making enough money to justify the expense of going, as a business owner, you have to decide what is best for you.

For me, I like attending the conventions, I have a large number of friends who attend, customers and dealers alike who I enjoy spending time with, so I would keep going as long as I break even, there are probably other dealers who feel the same way as they like to game and socialize.

I also buy items for my collection in the dealer hall and in the flea market, so again, as long as I break even, I'll keep going.

But that said, that is not a sustainable business model in the real world.

As far as the attendees; again, personal choice and all that. If I was faced with spending 30.00 to shop, I'd have to think about it, 10 to 20 years ago when there was a ton of items there for me to buy, then sure, I'd consider it, but now, I spend MAYBE 250.00 to 500.00 per show, most of that goes to Doug at BTC, who IMO makes by far the best scenery on the wargaming market.

Personal choice is all……….

I'm not a dealer, so I have no specific knowledge of the economics involved, but it seems to me the whole thing is pretty borderline for most. Thirty years ago, I remember going to a con thinking, "buy everything you need, because you won't have a chance again for six months." With the Internet, that is gone, and few dealers are able to bring reasonable stocks of minis anymore anyway.

It just strikes me that long term, it's important to do everything possible to make sure it is economically feasible for dealers to attend…or we'll slide down a slope, losing the dealers first, and then attendees who won't go to a con that is gaming only. Its a death spiral, and one we should avoid, especially since the cons are profitable and HMGS has a lot of cash. Soaking a few shopping only daytrippers isn't going to break the bank.

Hey, just tossing out ideas to help keep the shows viable. A rising tide raises all ships…..

But hey, TheKing30, Bowman or anyone else, please feel free to stop by and chat (if we are not busy), or stop by during the Reception at Cold Wars (over a free beer). If nothing else, it sure helps to be able to put a face to a TMP name. I know too few of the commenters by their TMP handle. It is always great to know who you are chatting with! Looking forward to seeing everyone at Cold Wars.

"I'm not a dealer, so I have no specific knowledge of the economics involved, but it seems to me the whole thing is pretty borderline for most. Thirty years ago, I remember going to a con thinking, "buy everything you need, because you won't have a chance again for six months." With the Internet, that is gone, and few dealers are able to bring reasonable stocks of minis anymore anyway.
It just strikes me that long term, it's important to do everything possible to make sure it is economically feasible for dealers to attend…or we'll slide down a slope, losing the dealers first, and then attendees who won't go to a con that is gaming only. Its a death spiral, and one we should avoid, especially since the cons are profitable and HMGS has a lot of cash. Soaking a few shopping only daytrippers isn't going to break the bank."

This post is solid.

As in rock solid.

How many dealers who attend the conventions are full time dealers, I'd venture to guess hardly any and as you pointed out, it's virtually impossible financially or spacewise to come to a convention with a full boat of minis. Are you going to hump thousands of pounds of lead to a convention to hear "I'd like these 49 packs, but since you don't have the 1 the pack of right shoulder shift on hand, I'll pass on the other 48"…………….

And yes, the internet has killed for the most part the shopping experience as preinternet, the only way to see or in a lot of cases buy the items was in person at a convention.

That ship sailed along with pay phones, CD players, typewriters and my 32" waistline.

Hey leave your cotton picking hands off of my CD players!

Hey, just tossing out ideas to help keep the shows viable. A rising tide raises all ships…..

Nothing wrong with a good discussion. I'm always game for a good idea. I feel the same about George. We had a mutual friend (who since passed) who always spoke highly of George. Based on what he used to tell me, there isn't much George could say or do that would lower my high opinion of him.

But hey, TheKing30, Bowman or anyone else, please feel free to stop by and chat (if we are not busy), or stop by during the Reception at Cold Wars (over a free beer). If nothing else, it sure helps to be able to put a face to a TMP name. I know too few of the commenters by their TMP handle. It is always great to know who you are chatting with! Looking forward to seeing everyone at Cold Wars.

Chances are I'm not attending Cold Wars this year (my job loves to cancel my March vacations). But I'll be sure to stop down at Historicon.

Beer generally isn't my thing, but I'll come down with a nice bottle of red (supposed to help with my health).

most of that goes to Doug at BTC, who IMO makes by far the best scenery on the wargaming market.

This is perhaps one of the highest compliments that can be paid to anyone. BTC – do you carry anything in 28mm dark age??

How many dealers who attend the conventions are full time dealers, I'd venture to guess hardly any and as you pointed out, it's virtually impossible financially or spacewise to come to a convention with a full boat of minis. Are you going to hump thousands of pounds of lead to a convention to hear "I'd like these 49 packs, but since you don't have the 1 the pack of right shoulder shift on hand, I'll pass on the other 48"…………….

And yes, the internet has killed for the most part the shopping experience as preinternet, the only way to see or in a lot of cases buy the items was in person at a convention.

I got over that a LONG time ago. If I'm going to a convention I'll be sure to email the vendors to see if they will have the product at the booth. I have no problems with paying in advance to make sure I get what I want.

That ship sailed along with pay phones, CD players, typewriters and my 32" waistline.

32 waist line? Let's see…. that's 1981… I was 6'2" and 140lbs. Yea… a LONG time ago.

Hey King30, yeah just remind me. My show partner Cary is a certified wine snob (actually he is a professional wine guy and seller), and I am sure we could have a nice bottle of red around to sample.

In regards to Dark Age, it all depends on what you are looking for. We have a little bit of everything, and then plenty of generic stuff that can be used in all periods and many scales. Always happy to try and oblige, so give me a shout off the thread if we can meet some of your terrain needs.

Hey King30, yeah just remind me. My show partner Cary is a certified wine snob (actually he is a professional wine guy and seller), and I am sure we could have a nice bottle of red around to sample.

Oh, don't worry. I normally bring Kendall Jackson Grand Reserve or – if I can find it – One Woman Wines. Another wine I've been enjoying as of late is Coppola. Nice wine for the price point. I'm curious what your parter would think of those.

I'll send you a private message about the terrain

King30, I drink mostly old world white wines and some German Reds on a regular basis. Although I do enjoy a good Cab, Merlot or Pinot, I am not the red wine expert that several of my friends are (know more than many but cannot hold a candle to their knowledge and experience).

…..especially since the cons are profitable and HMGS has a lot of cash. Soaking a few shopping only daytrippers isn't going to break the bank.

Reminds of the time I suggested that the HMGS take some of it's profit to offset the costs that the vendors bear. I got blasted for this. Most notably by a vendor who thought it beneath him to "accept charity". Oh well.

And the Saturday day trippers aren't the issue. TSD101 has a better solution than handing out "free shopping" badges. There are many wargamers, myself and TheKing30 included, who game all weekend and mostly off of the PEL grid. We could all get free shopping passes and still enjoy the same time we do now…..and do that free. If we do play in a scheduled game, do the GM's really look and care about our badges? How many others could/would do the same? More importantly, how would that impact the HMGS's ability to run it's conventions?

I drive all the way from Canada, am a proud member of the HMGS and run games at all the conventions I get to. I pay full price admission. I have a vested interest in the continued succes of the organization and all it's conventions.

If you truly think handing out free "shopping badges" is a great idea, then find a candidate running for BOD who thinks the same and back him/her. Good luck with that.

So TheKing30, sorry for the derail but if you can't come for Cold Wars then you have till Historicon to hunt down something from One Women Wines. I will get something equivalent from one of our local (quite excellent) vineyards. Deal?

(Better for you than the Maple Syrup)

I'm ALWAYS on the hunt for One Woman wines. It's very hard to get. I found one once in a store. They never got it again. I might have to get out to the vineyard and pick some bottles up.

Bowman, how do we know that what you are suggesting is not already happening with attendees sharing badges? If you only need the badge for one place, and the side doors are easy to infiltrate, there are already ways around not paying for those in the "know".

how do we know that what you are suggesting is not already happening with attendees sharing badges?

We don't. I'm sure it happens from time to time, and there's really not much that can be done to prevent it, short of printing people's picture on their badge and subjecting them to the same scrutiny as a 21 year old entering a bar. I don't think HMGS wants to deal with that.

Reminds of the time I suggested that the HMGS take some of it's profit to offset the costs that the vendors bear. I got blasted for this. Most notably by a vendor who thought it beneath him to "accept charity". Oh well.

And the Saturday day trippers aren't the issue. TSD101 has a better solution than handing out "free shopping" badges. There are many wargamers, myself and TheKing30 included, who game all weekend and mostly off of the PEL grid. We could all get free shopping passes and still enjoy the same time we do now…..and do that free. If we do play in a scheduled game, do the GM's really look and care about our badges? How many others could/would do the same? More importantly, how would that impact the HMGS's ability to run it's conventions?

I drive all the way from Canada, am a proud member of the HMGS and run games at all the conventions I get to. I pay full price admission. I have a vested interest in the continued succes of the organization and all it's conventions.

If you truly think handing out free "shopping badges" is a great idea, then find a candidate running for BOD who thinks the same and back him/her. Good luck with that.

I just figure, if HMGS could throw 100k+ down the toilet on "next level" crap, they can forgo a few hundred, or even a couple thousand dollars in revenue if it brings in more dollars to support the dealer hall.

I don't envy the dealers, and honestly, the dealer hall has become far less valuable precisely because it is almost impossible to shop for most minis there. It still makes sense, I'm sure, to be there to promote new games and product, but this is a small market, and I wonder just how much of a dollar value there is on that.

I just figure, if HMGS could throw 100k+ down the toilet on "next level" crap, they can forgo a few hundred, or even a couple thousand dollars in revenue if it brings in more dollars to support the dealer hall.

Let's carry this through a bit… We'd like to find a solution – not a knee jerk reaction. It should be a solution that everyone benefits. If we allow "shoppers" in free – this may help the dealers but does nothing for HMGS. Actually, you might hurt the convention over all by devaluing it.

Now let's just say this idea doesn't work – how do you close that barn door?

Now let's look at 1.00 badges for Sunday shopping. Sunday is a slow day. Hopefully by giving heavily discounted shopping admission – HMGS gets some revenue and the dealers might get a boost. That might be a win – win.

Just food for thought.

Bowman, how do we know that what you are suggesting is not already happening with attendees sharing badges?

It is happening. I've seen it, right outside the tennis barn door. A guy, exiting the barn with his full shopping bags, hands his badge off to a waiting friend who then goes inside.

That behaviour undercuts the ability of the HMGS to run its cons, though it is beneficial to the vendors. A free shopping pass during the whole convention does the exact same thing.

I just figure, if HMGS could throw 100k+ down the toilet on "next level" crap, they can forgo a few hundred, or even a couple thousand dollars in revenue if it brings in more dollars to support the dealer hall.

I agree with the first part of your sentence. If you go back over these threads, you'll see I had some strong conversations with the "next levellers". By the way, they did succeed in their claims. They did take Historicon to the next level………..downward.

I'll disagree with the second part. I'd rather see some of the convention profits offsetting dealer costs for future conventions. Why that idea got static from some dealer, I'll never know.

Several vendors I know have been advocating free Sunday entry to the dealers hall for years. Seems like a good idea to me.

Plus no stupid special badges, no armbands or wristbands and no need for policing. This is a far better idea. Sunday Flea market tables are also free, are they not?

As to the "well everything is picked over by then" argument, do what I do. Pre-order and tell them you are picking the product up on Sunday. Simple.

So the flea market is free on Sunday to both those selling and buying. The dealer hall used to be open to all, but several years ago they started checking for badges – which in IMHO is stupid. That is a waste of staff time.

How about ala carte? If you are only attending than badge A, flea market badge B, vendors only badge C, Full attendees get all the badges. My badges have "GM" on them. Just add the other stuff on. Now to argue the other side a moment. HMGS is 350,000 ?!? To the good. Let's not inconvienence 3000 guys over 10 who cheat. It is not worth it, but if we must ala carte may end some of the cheating.

Not knowing the fine details, but don't we have a big surplus of money even after the Baltimore fiasco and despite the drop in attendance at the cons? Which means to my mind that we are collecting more then we spend, which of course is a good thing, to a point. I am sure we need to have some sort of reserve, but could we simply reduce fees across the board?

I agree with the first part of your sentence. If you go back over these threads, you'll see I had some strong conversations with the "next levellers". By the way, they did succeed in their claims. They did take Historicon to the next level………..downward.

I'll disagree with the second part. I'd rather see some of the convention profits offsetting dealer costs for future conventions. Why that idea got static from some dealer, I'll never know.

Why go right to subsidizing dealers without trying to bring in a few more shoppers? And, the easiest way to subsidize dealers is to lower table costs.

And, the easiest way to subsidize dealers is to lower table costs.

That's what I mean.

Several vendors I know have been advocating free Sunday entry to the dealers hall for years. Seems like a good idea to me.

I don't know if there's any liability issues, but making Sunday totally free for all might mean that more than a half dozen games take place. I'd be okay with that.