"Black Tree Design, anyone else having problems? " Topic

Nick @ NorthStar runs a quality business. One of his greatest strengths is his communication practices with his customers, (e.g. website, emails and phone calls answered). Therefore, I propose we, (TMP BTD Fans) inquire as to the cost of obtaining BlackTree Design. If and when we receive an agreement and price, we then start a Kickstarter to purchase BTD for Nick.

Rewards could be worked out.

I received an email yesterday from John Olsen of BTD apologizing for the recent delays, and blaming a mix of production, staff and personal problems. He's promising things will improve soon and I'm happy to give him the chance to come good.

Black Tree Designs has been at the heart of so many customer service shortfalls and controversies, including one with me, that I cant believe they're still in business.

It must be supported by a wealthy eccentric who keeps sinking resources into the company to keep it going while enjoying seeing people twist over their unshipped orders or part orders received.

Or, maybe there's a humanitarian element to this story?

Maybe, just maybe, they employ people whom no one else will hire and they staple packages to their shirts and tape themselves to the boxes and thus it all ends up that the average 2 week order takes about 6 months to complete.

Now, ordinarily, Id be miffed but if he is making people who have a hard time operating in the real world feel appreciated, then he should let us know and I'm sure our better angels would both applaud and support his sense of community.

Otherwise, they need to stop torturing customers.

@Big Red Bat:

Simon, I am sorry to hear you having trouble with your order. Your blog showing the BTD Romans was my inspiration to make my last two orders from BTD for Romans and Auxiliaries. (No, I haven't gotten them yet – I knew from past experience it may take a while …)

Yes it's a real shame. I still really like the minis- no longer like the company, though. :-(

I placed a small order because I really like their minis also. I received the order in 10 days, from TX to PA, with 2 emails from them with an update on status and also an apology for the delay. Maybe things are on the upswing for them.

They seem better with small orders, than with large. My main gripes with them were lack of minis and lack of comms. I honestly believe that without the Paypal refund mechanism, I might never have heard back from them.

I know they have gone to an outside source to cast for them.

When medical ailments are involved it can be very hard. I am constantly surprised and amazed with how … useless and helpless I can be when I am very sick. As a teacher I try to remember this for students. Unless they are at home because of something that is non-sickness related, it's almost more harm and frustration to try to make them do work than it is to just let them recuperate with sleep.

I've always gotten my figures, eventually, though. I am more than happy when I do. Mind you, if I was not taking advantage of higher discount sales, I might not be as happy to wait, but then maybe because of the sale I'm put on a lower tier of priority(?).

Sadly, I have more time than money, so …

The question isn't whether illness makes one unable to work, the questions are:

1. Why are there so many sick people selling things in the wargaming hobby? Is it because the materials are so hazardous? Maybe we need some safety regulations.

2. Why do they only seem to get sick after they get my money and not after they send my product? I know this is pure coincidence but I have to say, the sheer number of coincidences seem quite…coincidental.

3. Knowing that they are sick, why do they continue to accept money when they know fulfillment will be an issue? Am I am really contributing to their medical care? If so, I would like a tax deduction.

4. In the eyes of some wargamers, why is illness an acceptable excuse to not fulfill orders? I don't see anywhere else where that is alright. Unfortunately, some wargamers make excuses for people in this hobby when they should let the merchant stand on their own two feet and explain themselves.

1. There are so many sick people selling things in the wargaming hobby because old people get sick. Oh, and your safety regulations put some companies out of business years ago due to no lead.

If these companies are really just hobby businesses run by old ailing people then they need to let the moulds go before they kill off interest in the line.

If you can't afford to employ someone to cast for you while you're sick then you probably shouldn't be pretending to be a business.

It also seems apparent that a message should be put on these sites to state that the sole caster is sick and cannot fulfill orders in a timely fashion.

Ohh, and MiniPigs, thanks for the comment about the Special Needs workshop, always nice to have some levity.

There seems to be something in the psych of many of us that merely enjoying playing, painting, collecting and researching is not enough. Instead of shelling out money those so inclined need to reverse the flow of money. I think a lot of hobbyist come to a point that the amount of time there putting in two the business is competing with the rest of their lives, include the enjoyment of gaming. So they quit there day job, not fully understanding what they're getting into or don't, are not able to keep up with the volume. Hiring someone is a serious expense which some many of these business can't afford. I am fine with a business saying up front that it will take 6 months to send as long as they say before I click "okay."

I too am having problems getting ordered product from them. I order some stuff from them in December, kind of forgot about the order, then remembered, tried contacting him, via email first then facebook messages and after those were ignored for a week I did an open post on their Facebook group, that got a response, they emailed me saying they were out of some of the product I ordered but they will be getting a restock of them in a few days. Once again I have heard nothing from them in 22 days and again they are ignoring Emails and Facebook messages.

I just opened a dispute with my credit card company on an order from last November. Pity because I used to like them despite a somewhat slow turnaround time. but three months and non returned emails has broken this camel's back. Adding insult to injury is the fact that I keep getting sales announcements from them.

I have two outstanding orders. One from November, as well (Black Friday sale). The other from December.

They have always come through in the past. If the orders would not have been, essentially, half-price deals, then I might consider a refund.

That's now 3 months for me. Just a small test order fortunately. Something has gone seriously wrong here.
Makes it impossible to order any more. Major risk. Looks like they need to sell up.

I placed two orders of around £50.00 GBP each, one in November and the other in late December. I'm still waiting for three packs from the November order, but have been kept updated and was sent a couple of freebie packs with the bulk of what I'd ordered which arrived a few weeks ago.

It's not an ideal situation, but I knew the likelihood of a long delay when making the order; they are still my favourite WW2 miniatures; they were half price; and realistically, I have several months if not years worth of other stuff to paint in the meantime.

They're not worth the trouble. However, crappy customer service isn't limited just to Black Tree Designs. I have had to initiate charge-backs with a lot of companies which have made me wait 3 months or more without filling my order and without much or any communications.

Someone said this was common with small businesses but I think that's horse apples. I dealt with many a small business in my time and I've only had one charge-back in the last twenty or so years. I've had almost a dozen in the last year and a half with this hobby. Unless you're doing business with meth smoking bikers (ala Breaking Bad) or trailer trash (ala My Name is Earl), don't see why this would be such a phenomenon.

MiniPigs, I can assure as a "motorcycle enthusiast" myself, that bikers do not smoke meth. (they wouldn't be keeping their bikes if they did)

As for being in economic situations that require one to dwell in inexpensive housing, I believe that is an economical question, as opposed to another Hollywood disinformation campaign perpetrated by certain elements of society that it seems solely acceptable to perpetrate racist stereotypes.

I think the fact this hobby is influenced heavily by current economics where it seems so many have to work full-time jobs (some more than one just to make ends meet!) that when all is said and done, the miniatures hobby is very seemingly unique … Maybe.

It certainly does not seem to be the same with scale models, a very similar hobby.

I guess the whole fact of this "Consumer Affairs" message board shows the reality of the gaming "hobby".

I do think BTD should be taking money if they are unable to process orders.

Add "Do not" to above.

Oh not again. This has been going on for years on and off.

Waiting for two orders since November. What is particularly annoying is that I get emails about sales etc. If they can send these out to solicit further sales, why can't they send out my miniatures!

Yeah, I agree, it is kind of depressing about the emails.

Although, the second last email stated John was sick, or something, and the email was being answered by someone else (no name given).

The latest email said the emails received were being answered (sounds like there were a LOT of inquiries) and to be patient, or something (don't have them in front of me to read – so just paraphrasing).

Sick, eh? I wish we could study what the proportion of sick wargaming proprietors is who cannot fulfill their obligations with other industries.

I'm on my tenth "sick" wargaming proprietor. Unfortunately for all these poor, unfortunates, claiming one is sick when one is really either incompetent or dishonest is a common ruse of those with low character. I am certain there is none of that going on in the wargaming industry…I'm just saying.

You could just stick with reputable third-party sellers who have merchandise in stock or with your local retailer. Then you would not have to worry about the gamble and delays.

@wmyers

That's perfectly good advice but it does illustrate how unreliable a decent amount of the hobby is.

I am not disagreeing with you.

Most of my purchases have been from brick and mortar stores that do mailorder (not sure if rules allow one to list them on here) as well as the Marketplace on here and Bartertown (hope that does not break any rules listing that site!) as well as from some big name manufacturers (like Warlord when they have their sales).

BTD has been very reliable for me in the past couple years. This is an anomaly.

There are a lot of makes listed on the Consumer message board on TMP that have rave reviews for excellent service and product. I would try to focus on just purchasing from those.

I made an order through Paypal in November 2018 and still have not received it. About every three weeks I get an email saying it will be shipped soon.

I finally had to enter a dispute with my cc company to get my money back. 3.5 months is too long no matter the discount.

I'm on my tenth "sick" wargaming proprietor.

Either you are very unlucky or I am very lucky. I have had the odd long delay over the years, but never had anything fail to turn up that wasn't the fault of the postal services. In fact had more trouble with post. Damaged goods, lost parcels even tracked ones. Had one go missing recently and after 3 weeks of them telling me customs had it I phoned customs who told me they had cleared it 3 weeks previously. Got back to Royal Mail and they finally admitted they had just lost it!

LTC Reinwald: I have never gotten an email from them about my order …

I've been waiting as long as you. Perhaps I need to inquire.\

They must be getting a fair number of money returns taken from them if what is posted on here is any indication …

That can't bode well. I do wish them the best.

LTC, I too put in an order in November, but have received no emails that I did not initiate. No figures yet, and no reply to my latest email.

When does not providing a paid for product become, well, theft?

I really love BTD figures and if something is really going on health-wise, I wish them the best. But communications is really problematic and raises serious concerns.

I received the final three packs today from my order placed in November.

A slow turnaround, but I was prepared for it when ordering by past experience, and I'm still happy with the figures themselves and the price I paid.

So there is hope….

That is good news. I love their figures, so am willing to wait, but it is getting a bit silly.

Keep in mind that this same company was caught using a sock-puppet account on TMP years ago to denigrate their competitors. There seems to be a character issue here.

I got another email a while back about illness and apologies. Sounds similar to posts in 2015 I have come across.
I accepted a while back my £30.00 GBP is gone. Emails saying orders are almost ready is getting silly. That's now 5 months.

I am waiting from November (Black Friday sale). No individual emails – just the generic ones.

Yet, they are still pumping out the weekly sales emails and have had some Kickstarters since then.

Lots of negative comments on Blacktree's Facebook page.

Yet, it seems from the comments some recent orders have been filled.

One would think they would start with oldest and fill them first.

Better yet, if something's come up and you can't run your business, hire someone(s) to help you in the mean time.

November 24, 2018. 2 orders each worth 60 pounds….still waiting.

Horrible company – dishonest businessmen – I would never buy their products – EVER!

On there Facebook.. As of May 1st.. A guy called John.. His dad passed away. I think he had been ill for a while.. So I imagine that has had an impact

I received a lengthy email a week or so ago apologizing for the lack of service and, since then, I have received two emails advertising sales. I thought, "you've got to be kidding me."

@fred2184 everything seems to have an impact on these clowns. The weather, stock market prices. midgets.

Funny how it doesn't stop them from taking money and running sales ads isn't it?

I guess you never really know but I have to say, at some point it's a tactic. In the last couple of years I have had delays and issues with makers, suppliers, painters etc who claim illness or illness in the family in a much larger proportion to the rest of the population. Now I have a family member who isnt doing well either but it doesnt stop me from working or fulfilling my obligations to people in my orbit.

This comes across to me as a cheap tactic and one I suspect a charlatan pulls because, after all, even though it's you who have been penalized by both time and money…and worry, if you dont give them abject sympathy, the yarn spinner has the right to get angry at you along the "You're not a nice person, now I get to keep your money" line of thinking.

Growing up, I saw this a lot with shiftless peasants in emerging market countries. Now I see that peasants in Western Democracies pull the same stunts.

I dont want to hear it. When i go to a restaurant, I dont expect the service to delay my food order by an hour because someone in the family is ill and here, I dont expect to wait 6 weeks extra because someone is ill either. I sympathize about illness and death with loved ones but, still, the show must go on.

6 weeks wouldn't be nearly so bad. It's when you are talking about over 6 MONTHS …

6 months is outrageous. How have you managed to cope with that amount of wait time?

Good question.

BTD has always come through in the past. I've been occupied with other things in life. Hope…

Well, I have other people paint my minis so I cant spare 6 months but I sympathize. Something else is afoot and perhaps he cant afford to keep stocked, or something like that. Whatever it is, BTD isnt worth it.

I am worried with so many people having cancelled their orders and gotten refunds (paypal, credit cards) – they've been very vocal about it – this may seriously affect the company.

However, as Nick from Northstar pointed out, BTD is not a business in the sense of a proper shop so it's not essential to them (more of a cottage industry).

I'm trying to sympathize myself …

Has anyone heard from BTD lately? Received any miniatures?