"Koenig Krieg V4 Rule Book" Topic

It looks like the new version is finally ready for release, see link below.

There is no mention at the moment of it being available through North Star in the UK who currently sell the other rules that Siegeworks produce.

Its priced at $65 USD with free postage. ( the USD after the price is automatic and I cannot delete it)

I don't know if that's USD or AUD or if that is worldwide free postage.

If its AUD with free postage to the UK then thats not a bad deal.

link

Just ordered my copy. Looks good.

Achh mein gott senor! $65 USD, why don't I just open a vein for you, and you can take all you need!?

I'm sorry. Half a dozen things have been changed, but I don't generally take a publisher's word on whether they're improvements. Someone has to show me the new mechanisms first. And "era books" will follow, which means, like Black Powder, Flames of War and GW products, buying this rule book is just a down payment. To play in circles using these rules, I'd need to pay more money, but no one knows how much or when.

Good for the serious KK fan, I should think. But for myself, I believe I'm better off buying lead to finish up an army or so. 65 dollars for the core rules and an unspecified sum for each era book will buy a lot of H&R Successor-era figures.

Amen! Well Said Robert. H

Still play the original rules I bought in 1991. I enjoy the games and saw no reason to change.

I'm interested, but currently see no reason to leave V3 behind. As others say above, I'll wait for the reviews to come out before I get the new edition.

My copy is 30+ years old (blue cover) and i think i can work out any period chrome myself.

nsolomon99.
Did you get charged in Aussie dollars or US?

I could not get a copy of v3 when I heard of it, so have no idea whether it improved on my v2, and now I have no idea whether v4 is an improvement on either one. I am intrigued, but I am also concerned about the fact that v4 purports to cover 1700-1900 which suggests more vanilla mechanisms and chrome. Does anyone have any actual battle reports or reviews which give any details on v4?

I have checked with Drew at siegeworks regarding the price.

"Postage is free worldwide for the rules.
65.00 dollars is in AUD.
The book is hardcover rules only."

This makes it about £36.00 GBP in proper money with free shipping. Ok credit cards/paypal will make it a bit more with their poor exchange rates.
Regarding additional books I recall seeing on an old site something as follows.

"There will be eight books in the new Koenig Krieg series, with a some possibilities for future releases earlier than 1660, these are;

Koenig Krieg Ruklebook V4.
La Guerre du Roi – 1660 -1730
Frederick the Great – 1730-1789
Napoleon – 1790-1815
Freedom – American Wars 1776-1902
Rise of Nations – European Nations 1820-1880
The Sun Never Sets – Colonial wars 1820 – 1902.
Der Grosse Koenig – Campaign and Siege rules
Heresy – 1600-1660 "

Most of which I have no interest in apart from the campaign rules perhaps. The army lists if of interest are always separate from the rules and I expect this will probably be the same again.

As the announcement about the rule set being available was only a couple of days old then there will be no battle reports yet unless anyone who playtested then would like to post.

The nerve of the guy to offer additional books for sale. It's as if he was hoping to make money off of this.

Ordered as I like the KK system and AUD 65 worked out at GBP 36.22 so not too bad.
Now just waiting for them to circumnavigate the globe :-)

I have to agree with RittervonBek, I actually have the same version he has, Blue cover, copyright 1982, Mikes Models USA, as well as an updated version dated 1996, Freikorps 15 and Outland Games. I have noted some minor changes, mostly improvements, some not. The main changes involved updated units sizes but I prefer to use historical strengths and unit sizes. There is not a significant difference, things like 15 figure Prussian heavy cavalry instead of 12 and also 15 figure Austrian heavies and mediums not counting 1 additional elite squadron instead of the 16 used by the rules and 18 figure Austrian hussars instead of 16. Anyway, 65 bones is a lot to pay for some minor improvements and other changes. I'll just use the rules as we have been including some of our changes.

BTW my 1996 version has Festung Krieg, LeGuerre Dui Roi, and Der Grosse Koenig. Not sure which version number that makes it, anyone out there know?

Just ordered mine via Paypal, oddly I decided to pay in USD (I had some doing nothing ) Cost was $47.75 USD with free shipping to the UK.Hopefully the delivery kangaroo wont take too long.

Well, $47.75 USD USD isn't so bad, still pricey, but it is hardcover, softcover should ease the pain somewhat. Still, I would like to know what the "improvements" consist of. The only real significant changes I noted between my 1982 version and my 1996 version was the addition of the 3 additional rules systems for pre 7 Years War, siege warfare, and campaigns, none of which I use by the way.

Seems all you guys have experience with this game. I've never heard of it. Is it any good? I'd like something about 1"=40 yards or so. Can anyone offer any particulars about Koenig Krieg?

(It'd be nice if all this info was offered by, you know, the publisher. This pig-in-a-poke marketing approach I take as a bad sign.)

Don Cossack

The rules are written for 15mm and have scale of 1"=150-200 feet so a little bit bigger.

There are 3 or 4 game reports on our club blog that will explain some of the concepts.

link

link

I've got two versions, one from 1982 and one from 1996. Aside from some "chrome" there is not a great deal of differences, the one from 1996 did, however, also include Festung Kreig, La Guerre Du Roi, and Der Grosse Koenig. These are additional rules for sieges, the period 1688-1740, and rules for campaigns, respectively, none of which I've used yet.
Admittedly my experience it limited I've only used one other set, Frederick the Great, now out of print. KK is a good set of grand tactical rules for large scale engagements but can be used for smaller scale games as well with some small modifications.

My v4 set has just arrived and looks very well done, its a bit early to give detailed answers to those wanting to know whats changed so these are my views after just 15 mins flicking through them.

Presentation is far more professional and the rules whilst keeping most of the original concepts intact have been re-worded throughout so it will need a much deeper analysis to see if anything has been significantly altered. On the whole the re-writing has improved the understanding of what were slightly oddly phrased rules originally.

Obvious new stuff:
There are now Brigade morale rules as well as Army ones.
Turns can end early if both sides throw a 1, I am Ok with this during movement but it applies to combat as well so I will probably ignore that .
The rules are more generic so specific period stuff has been moved to the army lists due out later.
Battalion guns are now actual guns and not rolled into the unit.
As normal nowadays there are no QRS included,I would expect a PDF to be made available .
A new option in combat is to enter fire fight rather than charge in
Passage of lines is now included
Disorder is now better explained

There is probably more to say but I am now late so have to go but the main concept of initiative hasn't changed , the use and control of which is the key to playing these rules

Not sure what version(s) Mr Steve had before, but some of the "obvious new stuff" was in both sets that I have, from 1982 and 1996 respectively. Battalion guns have always been actual models and were never rolled into the unit in either set I have. Also the "option" to charge in or fire fight has always been there to my knowledge and passage of lines never seemed to be an issue. The first two items on his list seem new but if the rules are more generic and there is no QRS included that does not seem to me to be an improvement. One plus, disorder never seemed to be explained in either set that I have.

I can hopefully shed a little more light on the changes in the 4th version of Koenig Krieg now that I have had a more time to read them properly .First let me answer some questions.

The only previous version I have is v3 so that is all I can compare to,
Battalion Guns: page 11 "In previous editions of KK we assumed battalion guns were part of the battalion or amalgamated into light Batteries, adding battalion Guns creates a whole new dimension to the game" "each battalion gun counts as one figure extra, so a 12 man unit and a gun counts as 13 figures" There is then a list of things they cannot do so as long as they haven't changed the army lists I will stick with just using light guns instead.
In the close combat phase in v3 you only had 4 options, charge, change formation/facing, issue defensive fire or tap out. Now in v4 you get 6 options; change formation/facing, Evade (this was always an option but has been moved), Fire and retire (artillery), Fire-Fight, Charge, Tap out
Defensive fire has moved to the reaction section

"One new feature added is the option to fire fight. Instead of charging a unit with initiative may elect to fire fight embroiling its opponent in a bitter fire fight" Both sides shoot simultaneously

Passage of lines was a question I had raised after my first game when I couldn't find any rule that covered troops retreating or advancing through friends. I doubt they remembered my query but it is now included under possible disorder causes.

The rules are now written with 28mm in mind and so all the ranges etc are to this effect, they say that charts have been made for other sizes but are not in the book, this is again becoming a common fault with new rules, I am guessing they will be released along with the QRS as a PDF to save money

There is a new rule for enemy troops crossing your front, 5+ then you can react.
Tempus Fugit I mentioned previously (both players throwing a 1)
Attrition hits: some new causes but also collating previous causes under one heading.
Marksman rule mainly for use in AWI /Napoleonic's
Disorder now has its own page, thank goodness
Generals get 5 pages as this has been expanded, the only stand out item is adding in ‘inspirational' which is used in morale
Initiative has altered a little; for move and volley you still roll as previously but now when there is a draw the previous loser wins the draw, in close combat this has changed a bit more. Now you have a master roll and the whole difference gets moved or passed across, you can use some or all before passing, then you stop rolling and take it in turns. In exploitation there is now only one roll and you take it in turns to exploit.
Moving looks the same there is mention of a drilled bonus which I am not going to outline as I suspect there may be some slight additions later for the different eras.
Screening is allowed by skirmishers and cavalry, again I suspect more details in different eras.
Shooting hasn't changed much, Artillery can now bombard, risking low ammo (which oddly is also repeated under engineering), units attacked in exploitation can fire at -2 (which is a clarification as it was a bit confusing previously)
Close combat is basically un-altered , some infantry now have to test for breaking bayonets
Exploitation looks the same
All brigades now get a Morale Class of 10 to 12 , there is a chart similar to the army morale, failed morale can result in retreats and you then roll for nearby brigades " Domino effect "is specifically mentioned

There are 11 pages of charts and a page of appropriate coloured markers

As I said previously v4 appears to have been re –written as a more generic set to cover multiple eras , 1660-1900 according to the cover, also " the Generals Compendium, the free PDF support for Koenig Krieg is being finished and ready for release in January. All customers who buy these rules will receive their copy once released." I have no idea what will be in this ,maybe the charts and QRS .

Not trying to be a smartass, but are we talking the same rules, Koenig Krieg? Mr Steve apparently has v3 and recently acquired v4. My two copies do not say what version they are but can only assume mine are v1 and v2 because from what I am reading they bear little or no resemblance to the rules that Mr Steve has.
As I have noted before, my two sets are dated from 1982 with Mikes Models as the distributor and the second set is dated from 1996 and distributed through Freikorps 15 and Outland Games.

I asked Siegeworks about getting 15mm charts etc.
"The charts for 15mm will be available as part of the (free) Compendium as will 15mm charts. At the moment if you have already played KK, the existing 15mm measurements are the same"
Not sure why charts gets mentioned twice, I suspect it's a typo, I also asked about a QRS but that wasn't mentioned in the reply. They also pointed out that cavalry have been changed from 4 per base to 2 , this is shown in the new rules and I hadn't noticed, not sure why but probably to help with making the rules cover more eras. I will wait to see what the 7YW 'supplement/army lists' say before getting the knife out as I quite like how they look now.

Are these the same rules? Well I can only compare them to v3 . Yes, but re-written to make them more appealing to more popular eras such as ACW , Napoleonic's etc. The basics are all still the same.
The 3 distinct phases
March & Volley
Close combat
Exploitation
The repeated throwing for initiative( now reduced a little)
The method of shooting and melee calculation are all the same as v3

Whilst my v3 set was obviously for 7YW, v4 is trying to be suitable for any horse and musket era but if you take away the surface it's the same set underneath. Having never seen the earlier versions I cannot comment as I don't know if they had the same basic concepts outlined above.

I recently bought the new edition of Brigade Fire&Fury, they had the same decision to make , whether to move away from the original and therefore upset the existing players, just tinker a little and so get accused of charging twice for the same product or try and make corrections/improvements sufficient to please some and not too many to upset others. In BFF I think it worked, v2 is better than v1 and it hasn't become a different set of rules.

Koenig Krieg v4 has been aimed at getting new players to buy it by trying to become a Horse and Musket set of rules across many periods, the rules underneath haven't changed only the way it is put across that it is now no longer just a set for the 7YW , I don't know if it will work but that's not my problem , I will try it out with my 7YW armies and see if the alterations have made them better , if not then I still have v3 and I can add on what bits I do like.

Well, I'm just not totally convinced, sounds like there have been some improvements such as less rolling for initiative and added rules for disorder, those I would really like to see as neither of my current sets of KK define disorder and therefore makes no provisions for it.
As the old saying goes, only time will tell, we will have to wait until there have been some games and such with the new rules to determine if the changes are improvements or not.