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"Osprey rules: Rebels and Patriots " Topic

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18th Century

1,577 hits since 24 Dec 2018
©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Winston Smith24 Dec 2018 10:38 a.m. PST

Ordinarily I'm set for AWI rules.
However, at $17 USD, it seems worth a shot.

A few questions.
Are figures individually based?
What is unit size? Is it variable and flexible? I firmly believe that the size of a unit in AWI depends strongly on how many figures I have. Two packs of Perry figures means the unit is 12 figures strong. 3 packs = 18. Etc.

How does it play? Am I going to have to go back and read something like "charge reaction" several times in the middle of a game?

Card activated?

Does it have mounted Infantry as opposed to "true" cavalry, artillery, amusettes, boats, wagons, Mr. Franklin's Galvanic Projectors?


Redblack24 Dec 2018 10:44 a.m. PST

The rules are being released on January 22

Tony S24 Dec 2018 10:58 a.m. PST

What I gather from playing his other rules from the same "Rampant" engine (Pikeman's Lament and The Men Who Would Be Kings) and reading about the playtests, so onward to my best guesses!

Basing doesn't matter. Individual will work. Multiple basing will work. One of the authors mounts his 28mm figures on 3-2-1 basing. Three on a base, two on a base and a singly mounted figure. We have used 15mm stands of four, and 28mm stands of four. Works just fine. I'm planning on using my 15mm 30x30mm based ACW figures for this game.

- Usually twelve infantry figures in a unit, six in mounted. A unit is a group of soldiers, so there's not really a scale per se. Indians might have more I suspect.

- No cards. Units activate on dice to be able to do things, or not as the case may be. Different types of units are more likely to do certain things.

- Quite simple and intuitive rules. After a couple of turns you should be able to play solely from the playsheet. (Assuming Osprey posts one; they are awfully inconsistent in downloadable materials for their games).

- No idea about all the extra bits like boats. Or lancers. Or galvanic projectors. The rules are basic enough, and flexible enough that I'm sure given a couple of minutes thought, you can indeed come up with rules for Ben's Great Weapons of Secrecy.

- I also suspect they;ll come with a lot of scenarios, which is always quite nice for a skirmish set.

I'm looking forward to these rules. Got mine on preorder. Admittedly I'm not too fond of Lion Rampant, but have had great fun with PL and TMWWBK. Not a hardcore simulation but an easy evening of fun play with good friends.

YouTube link

Big Red Supporting Member of TMP24 Dec 2018 11:00 a.m. PST

Here is a link to Michael Leck's blog list for R&P whereby he reveals all (as in almost all) including an AAR:


Almost any type of basing is possible. I use his 1-2-3 method and my opponent uses individually mounted.

Infantry are 12 figures, skirmishers and cavalry are 6.

I believe most if not all cavalry is mounted infantry but there is an option for "true" cavalry when present.

I would be surprised if Big Ben's Electrical Projectile Ejectors are included but I bet it wouldn't be too hard to add your own if you felt it was absolutely crucial.

Edit: Looks like Tony beat me to it!

KSmyth24 Dec 2018 11:16 a.m. PST

I already have plans for these rules. Let me just echo the idea that these will be like the other Dan Mersey rules. Most importantly, they will be easy to play and easy to modify as you need for whatever scenario you're building. There will be units from 6 figures (skirmishers and light horse) to 12 figures, and there will be some larger units too.

Individual figures are great, but I've gone to the 3-2-1 basing just because it makes everything a lot easier and faster. Winston, I bet you'll like 'em.

FlyXwire24 Dec 2018 11:43 a.m. PST

Again, looking at the WI "flip-through" video linked above -

YouTube link

There's a lot about campaigning your officer in a career, his traits, etc. , buying/building your company unit(s), tracking their "careers?", etc. (oh, and knowing enough about a particular historical period yourself, so you keep yourself within proper limits and the flavor of the period you're choosing to play in).

Looks like a role-playing inspired, points-build oriented, random activation system, that ultimately relies on the player to keep things historical anyway [or not] so really not for me, or my group, but, I'm sure others will be interested, because it's by Osprey, or new, or looks like a different take, etc., etc……

coopman24 Dec 2018 12:01 p.m. PST

I'm sure that you can ignore the campaign-related stuff and use them for normal pick-up games if you like. I don't care for all that myself.

FlyXwire24 Dec 2018 12:06 p.m. PST

I agree Coop – and then after ignoring all that stuff, we could be back playing BP era games with the rules we already know, use, and enjoy. ;)

Personal logo The Beast Rampant Supporting Member of TMP24 Dec 2018 1:36 p.m. PST

Actually, the six- and twelve-man unit is the "baseline" for most. Native foot, for instance, are "normally" twelve, but can cost more for a "large unit" of eighteen, or less for a "small unit" of six. Light foot can go smaller than twelve but not larger, and light cav are locked in at six. You get the idea.

I got this from the Wargames Illustrated flip-through:

YouTube link

I've ditched Muskets and Tomahawks, and will be primarily using this for my War of Jenkin's Ear / Anglo-Spanish "borderers".

Dukewilliam24 Dec 2018 3:16 p.m. PST

Will this include the F&I War?

Mirosav24 Dec 2018 3:33 p.m. PST

From the Amazon listing:

"From the French and Indian War, through the War of Independence and the War of 1812, to the Alamo and the American Civil War, these rules focus on the skirmishes, raids, and small engagements from this era of black powder and bayonet."

Tony S24 Dec 2018 3:36 p.m. PST

Let's see if I can pip Big Red to the post again!

As one of the authors states in his blog, Duke William, the answer is "yes". They will work for any war from 1750ish to 1870ish, and probably a little before and after. Apparently it's more suited to North American warfare, with very little cavalry, but they do have provision for heavy cavalry, and lances, for more European type conflicts.

As the owner of forces for WSS, Napoleonic and 1859, this is rather good news for me!

Pan Marek Supporting Member of TMP24 Dec 2018 3:46 p.m. PST

I want to use these for ACW, as the period is still lacking what I consider a "flavorful" set. I will likely continue with M&T for AWI.

But Leck's blog indicates two things that have me concerned:

1. Emphasis over playability over historicity. Now, I'm not looking for pure simulation, I'm looking for period flavor. If the set turns out to be generic, I'll likely not use it.
2. Their troop types ARE generic. They have a couple categories, and then you, the player, need to fiddle with them for the units in your specific scenario. This may work for me, but I'm suspicious of a rule set forces players to come up with troop stats. For example, this means that British AWI Grenadiers will be different in each game you play, depending on who the GM is.

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP24 Dec 2018 5:33 p.m. PST

I pre-ordered them. AS I understand it, the "engine" is the same as LR/DR/PL/TMWWBK, and it's a simple, fast-moving system. Mersey always adds something I regard as completely unnecessary, and in this case it appears to be officer's careers. But so far, everything like this--the "glory points" bit in LR for instance--has been remarkably easy to jettison without affecting core mechanics.

I love it when you can just drop the bits of the rules you don't like in the nearest bin and drive on.

ZULUPAUL Supporting Member of TMP24 Dec 2018 5:37 p.m. PST

Plan on getting them as I like LR.

Dukewilliam25 Dec 2018 8:17 a.m. PST

This sounds like a fun alternative to M&T on occasion. Agree with Robert p. I don't use the Glory Points or officer's career bits; jut have a good row and call it a day!

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP25 Dec 2018 10:41 a.m. PST

I'd be interested in them for the F&I War, but I would dump the RPG aspect.

Thomas O26 Dec 2018 7:46 a.m. PST

Can't wait for these rules to be released.

Jozis Tin Man26 Dec 2018 8:04 a.m. PST

Been waiting for this one… I will be doing it in 6mm believe it or not. Tarleton and Marion will ride again!!!!

Winston Smith26 Dec 2018 9:25 a.m. PST

Their troop types ARE generic. They have a couple categories, and then you, the player, need to fiddle with them for the units in your specific scenario. This may work for me, but I'm suspicious of a rule set forces players to come up with troop stats. For example, this means that British AWI Grenadiers will be different in each game you play, depending on who the GM is.

I do rate British Grenadiers at Lexington Concord as … not all that great. Years of garrison duty and all that.
I rate them much better later in the War, though.

dantheman Supporting Member of TMP26 Dec 2018 3:47 p.m. PST

Pan Marek

Waiting for this one. We will play it some Thursday with my 28mm ACW when the rules come out……

Pan Marek Supporting Member of TMP27 Dec 2018 8:28 a.m. PST

Oh, I'm buying it alright. I've played "The Men Who"
three times, and found it workable.
And yes, a Thursday night will be the time for us to try it our.

Royal Marine01 Jan 2019 12:07 p.m. PST
FlyXwire02 Jan 2019 9:20 a.m. PST
Old Contemptibles Supporting Member of TMP03 Jan 2019 12:11 a.m. PST

Troop ratings can very well be variable depending on the battle.
It is up to the scenario. Variables such as supply, weather, fatigue etc.

cae5ar21 Jan 2019 6:07 p.m. PST

Finally! These are the rules which plug the gap between Pikeman's Lament and The Men Who Would Be Kings. Just the no-nonsense, quick-play, horse-and-musket rules I've been waiting for! Ideal for club evenings where time, player inexperience and multiplayer adaptability are all considerations. I'm hopeful they will port across to the broader Napoleonic sphere without too much difficulty.

Pan Marek Supporting Member of TMP23 Jan 2019 2:03 p.m. PST

I just got them. Frankly, they aren't much different than
"The Men". The rules cover all the bases, but in the end
are mighty generic. They are set in the muzzleloader period, but troops need not use an "action" to load. Since the rules cover the ACW, with its revolvers, breachloaders and repeaters, this means in ACW games, one would have a hard time differentiating units with muzzleloaders vs. troops with breachloaders.
It does not look to be the set that will scratch my skirmish itch for ACW.

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