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"To WARLORD - Cruel Seas request" Topic


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World War Two at Sea

1,944 hits since 23 Dec 2018
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FlyXwire23 Dec 2018 7:21 a.m. PST

If a representative of Warlord Games reads this, and in time to help us early adherents to Cruel Seas (some of us who have spent $500 USD+ for your product already), please release an updated QRS incorporating your initial errata changes asap.

As a future suggestion, when you have additional clarifications to the rules that would involve changes to the QRS, that you make an updated QRS available at the same time.

Paul at Warlord Games Sponsoring Member of TMP23 Dec 2018 7:26 a.m. PST

An excellent idea and one which we have already been working on this week!

We could have put them out together but decided to put the errata out as soon as humanly possible rather than wait for both. The QRS will be available for download next week.

Cheers,

Paul Sawyer
warlordgames.com

FlyXwire23 Dec 2018 7:36 a.m. PST

Thank you Paul -

For your quick reply, and for already having this working plan in motion.

Luckily, "next week" will allow me to get back to my ship painting (instead of taking time away for making up my own amended QRS), and so back on schedule for a public, debut of the game I've slotted at a popular, local hobby shop in two weeks.

Personal logo Grelber Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2018 7:45 a.m. PST

Wow! That was a quick response!

Grelber
(Who is thinking he may need to invest in Cruel Seas, so reads all the posts.)

Wackmole9 Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2018 7:47 a.m. PST

Thanks for the quick updating of the rules and QRS so promly.

Fitzovich23 Dec 2018 7:49 a.m. PST

While this request is nice. I believe that those of us who have purchased this system are due a completely reprinted and updated rule book. This product was defective when it was issued and the 10 pages of errata is proof of that being the case. Either a refund or a new redone rulebook is all I find to be acceptable. There is simply no excuse for this shoddy level of workmanship.

FlyXwire23 Dec 2018 7:51 a.m. PST

Grelber, it was! I thought I might need to join up on Warlord's own board now, just in case I'd get a quicker response to this above request over there, than here on TMP.

Well, I'm still awaiting for membership approval to join the forum there…..

(so again glad we got some news here)

FlyXwire23 Dec 2018 7:57 a.m. PST

Kevin, I'm holding out for a physical replacement too!

In the meantime, I need something I can use to play with here locally at MM (atm – a timely, amended QRS might have to do).

Joes Shop Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2018 8:42 a.m. PST

FlyXwire: +1

Fitzovich23 Dec 2018 8:58 a.m. PST

FlyXwire, I appreciate your willing to be patient with them and that is likely the correct approach, but they sold a defective product that needs to be replaced. Just as a badly cast miniature should be replaced, there is absolutely no difference.

I did a homemade version of a QRS that I can send you if it would be of any help as I rely upon them when running games. I will say it isn't updated with the errata, but it is 1 page front & back.

I am guessing by MM you are discussing Miniature Market? If so we are likely local to one another.

Kevin

FlyXwire23 Dec 2018 9:46 a.m. PST

Kev,

For sure, and known each other for 40+ years (just not always by our forum handles). ;)

Dave S. [being a rascal :)))]

Fitzovich23 Dec 2018 10:02 a.m. PST

Dave,
My email is K-fitzpatrick at sbcglobal.net send me a message and I will see if I can attach the QRS to the thing and get it back to you. It's done in the Apple Pages program.
Kevin

FlyXwire23 Dec 2018 10:05 a.m. PST

Got it!
Incoming……

Wargamer Blue23 Dec 2018 1:53 p.m. PST

I'm also very disappointed I was sold a faulty Cruel Seas rulebook. A couple of errors I can understand, but not 10 pages worth.

Paul at Warlord Games Sponsoring Member of TMP23 Dec 2018 2:11 p.m. PST

Evening all,

If I could just interject on this…

No publisher is happy when typos, errors, etc make it through to the printing stage – these things are generally proofread and playtested many times. Some projects are cleaner than others and the Cruel Seas rulebook has a few more things we need to correct/clarify than our other games have to date. However, the reason this is a ten page errata is the format we presented the corrections in is very visual and if you compare it to other rulebook erratas handled in a more traditional way it doesn't seem anywhere near as bad as is being discussed here. Take a look at the errata presentation style and you'll see that it's probably a couple of pages if presented in the normal manner.

As soon as we realised there were some things we needed to correct we worked up the errata and made available immediately. I think that shows we're on the ball and eager to support the game as best we can rather than pretend the corrections aren't needed and hope the discussion goes away. That's not our style – never has been and never will be. That I'm here late on Sunday night answering your queries shows that we care deeply about our games, our interaction with our customer base and that we give as much information as we can so you can form a balanced opinion on these matters.

We have no plans to replace the rulebooks – pretty much every rulebook or supplement ever written has something that needs clarifying or correcting and this is no different. Do we wish things were tighter on this project? Absolutely! Is the game unplayable as a result>? Not at all. Indeed we're close to selling out of the main starter game and rulebook and a reprint is already underway with the corrections in place. For those with the first print run rulebook the errata is all you need to fully enjoy your adventures on the Cruel Seas!

Enjoy the rest of your weekend and I hope you've been good boys & girls this year or Santa may not leave you any models this year… ;-)

Cheers,

Paul Sawyer
warlordgames.com

Tony S23 Dec 2018 3:06 p.m. PST

Well said Paul! Most of the errata seems to be the scenarios. While I think reprinting the rules and shipping them out free for such minor errors would be foolish, I would gently point out that there is another alternative.

If you're almost out of the first print run (which is awesome news) and are going to correct the mistakes and and ommissions in the copy anyway, you could always send a corrected PDF at no cost to those that bought the first print run. Be quite a minimal cost to Warlord.

I suppose you'd have to trust people's honesty to determine if they did indeed buy the first edition, but even if there are few bad apples, they probably wouldn't be buying anything from you anyway.

Personal logo David Manley Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2018 3:27 p.m. PST

Paul, if you are doing a second print run with amendments I have a few suggestions for you. Watch out for an email to you at Warlord

Fitzovich23 Dec 2018 4:03 p.m. PST

Paul,
Thank You Very Much for your response to the question of replacing the rulebooks. Your company has made a business decision to sell a defective product to your customers and I am likewise making a business decision to make no further purchases from your company. You have lost a customer Sir! Well Done!

Good Day,
Kevin Fitzpatrick

foxweasel23 Dec 2018 4:47 p.m. PST

Kevin, it's hardly a defective product. A few lines are slightly wrong and have had amendments already written. And not one exclamation mark was needed in my post, do you have a mounting block for your steed?

coopman23 Dec 2018 5:50 p.m. PST

There really is not a lot of errata here until you get to the scenarios themselves, so I will resist throwing my rulebook in the garbage for now.

coopman23 Dec 2018 7:46 p.m. PST

I just spent over an hour taping and/or writing in the changes in my rulebook. I am satisfied with the results.

4DJones24 Dec 2018 2:32 a.m. PST

The Errata is not really the point. The point is that the rulebook shouldn't have been printed, published and sold in its present state in the first place.

Fitzovich24 Dec 2018 2:56 a.m. PST

Foxweasel,

After some reflection, I have concluded that you are completely correct and I am absolutely wrong in everything.

I should have never complained about having to do Warlord's work and make corrections in their products. I simply should be happy that they exist at all.

Good Day,

Wargamer Blue24 Dec 2018 5:33 a.m. PST

Wow WG. Talk about trying to polish a Bleeped text.

plutarch 6424 Dec 2018 6:18 a.m. PST

My set arrived today and Fitzovich is completely correct in that there may have been some confusing aspects which required correction.

The part about not being able to fire back through one's superstructure possibly needed expanding upon, and the section on moving a ship into contact with a torpedo counting as a hit may have been argued against in some quarters, so I am glad these have been clarified.

I'm looking forward to giving it a go, once I have incorporated the above and a few other bits and pieces.

carne6824 Dec 2018 8:37 a.m. PST

Kevin,
Just for comparison, how many pages of errata has been put out for the 8th freaking edition of 40k?

Fitzovich24 Dec 2018 9:13 a.m. PST

carne68,
I am afraid I have no idea as to the number of pages of errata or the edition numbers of 40k. I do not play the game nor do I care to do so. The comparison in fact is a false equivalency in any case. Just because a system by Games Workshop or any other manufacturer has problems does not in anyway change the sloppy, lazy, rush to an artificial deadline work done by Warlord on this release. They are two different arguments. If you have a problem with 40K you should take it up with the maker of that product line.

carne6824 Dec 2018 10:06 a.m. PST

My point was that within the war games community, companies with a far larger production budget than Warlord, have similar issues.

Fitzovich24 Dec 2018 10:19 a.m. PST

Carne68,
Other companies do indeed have similar issues and should address them as they come up. Not doing so is a sign of poor customer service in my opinion and a poor business model. That however does not change the fact that your argument continues to be a false equivalency. My buying a faulty product at the local market by any other manufacturer in any other industry is not comparable to Warlord's issues here. They are both a problem for the customer, but one does not justify or equate the other in any form. They are separate issues.

Lion in the Stars25 Dec 2018 11:27 p.m. PST

Games Workshop has managed to print at least one book with the completely wrong set of strategems in it. Not just 'oh, these were from the previous version' but 'WTF, those were not the correct version 4 updates ago!'

So I can understand sometimes things sneak by. Hell, we shouldn't talk about some of the projects I did in the Navy (where you were only allowed 3 typos per page).

But needing 10 pages, even with lots of visuals or replacing entire paragraphs, is what Infinity did with the Second Edition of the game. I think I still have the update printout in my N1 book, it was ~8 pages when you printed the entire paragraph, not just the part changed.

That's a pretty major issue to have blown up. Sorry, Paul, but while I like the models, I'm not too taken with your rules or your QA-in-production so far.

Guthroth26 Dec 2018 5:51 a.m. PST

10 pages of Errata is very bad news, doesn't matter how you cut it Paul.

I suspect it was known about well in advance, but making the changes would have meant missing the Christmas sales window.

The models are nice, and I will play games with them, but I cannot imagine playing the game as printed – EVER.

Timmo uk26 Dec 2018 4:08 p.m. PST

Before I read the thread I thought the request was going to be for models that look as if they are moving at speed not anchored in a flat calm.

I've recently returned a wargaming related book that was full of errors (not Warlord I hasten to add). I'm so fed up with sloppy production standards sold at a price that's suggestive of professional standards of production. Really there is no excuse for errors. The odd one does sometimes creep through but that's all. To have lots in a single volume is unacceptable. A professional publisher would generally expect to be producing books without any mistakes at all. Professional proof reading, including reading for sense, several times during the production process and then checking the job as a loose folded book proof is an essential, not optional, part of the process.

Minibeady26 Dec 2018 9:07 p.m. PST

Wait, when are folks playing Cruel Seas at MM?

We're trying to get folks together at Game Nite as well, would be good to link up.

Fitzovich27 Dec 2018 4:11 a.m. PST

Minibeady, I believe it is scheduled for 1/5 in the afternoon at 2pm. There is also Blue Max game this Saturday at 11am as I understand.

FlyXwire27 Dec 2018 8:04 a.m. PST

That's right. I'll be hosting a big Classic Blue Max WWI air game this Saturday (the 29th) at Miniature Market, and then muddling through Cruel Seas the following Saturday at the Superstore, on Jan. 5th.

This Cruel Seas game I did pre-scheduled before its release, and so feel committed to host the game. Also, as a miniatures game group that wants to stay pertinent to the local game store(s) whom allow us to use their game space, I do feel obligated to play [some] games that they retail (as promotion of a positive, mutually-beneficial relationship).

Perhaps in the months ahead our interest in Cruel Seas will evolve, but I'm wanting to give this game's release some time. Warlord has made quite an effort to bring out this package, and it'll be on the retail shelves to gather interest [or dust], but in the least, the miniatures are nice, and as many have said this release has spawned greater interest in naval gaming at the moment (I'm for one can attest to that).

Btw, we're still needing that official, updated QRS PDF from Warlord….

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