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"1975 Cold War - Stats and Organizations?" Topic

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706 hits since 22 Dec 2018
©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Buckeye AKA Darryl22 Dec 2018 8:08 a.m. PST

I am looking to do a small micro armor project set in Europe, circa 1975. I am in need of vehicle and infantry stats and unit organizations. FFT3 doesn't seem to cover the West Germans in 1975, so while I have seen that mentioned as a great resource, it doesn't seem to work for what I seek.

Are there old rules out there that include such data?


Personal logo Saber6 Supporting Member of TMP Fezian22 Dec 2018 8:11 a.m. PST

There is a spreadsheet on that lists year and model of Leopards in Bundeswehr units

Buckeye AKA Darryl22 Dec 2018 10:33 a.m. PST

Took a bit to find it, but what a great starting point. Thank you!

RudyNelson22 Dec 2018 11:33 a.m. PST

US First Cavalry were shifting from Vietnam to Tri-Cav to H- series which they were in when I got to the unit in 1977.

Onomarchos22 Dec 2018 6:28 p.m. PST

I looked for it and could not find it. Where is it on the site?

Thresher01 Supporting Member of TMP22 Dec 2018 6:52 p.m. PST

IIRC, the Fire and Fury TO&Es aren't real orgs, but are just designed to mimic them, with fewer vehicles, e.g. at about a 1:2 ratio, IIRC, so that can cause issues.

The West German Army went through many reorgs during the Cold War, and depending upon the year, their platoon and company structures changed significantly.

I had some notes somewhere, and then more on the computer, but of course that died, so……….

WG initially went with the US WWII Armored Platoon/Company structure of 17 vehicles to a company, and 5 per Plt.. Then (not sure of the date), they went with 14 per company 2 in the HQ and 3 x platoons of 4 each.

Then, or course, later, they went to 11 2 in the HQ, and 3 x platoons of 3, IIRC.

Later, they reverted back to 13 in a company (1 + 12).

These were organized under various Heeresstruktures 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

Looks like you want struktur 3 for 1970 1979:


I think this one had 14 vehicles per company, both in the Panzer, as well as the PzGren. units with the Marder and other IFVs.

This is very useful:


And, if this is working right, here's the English translation for you:


(if that doesn't work, see the individual pages below)

Here's a page with links to all the Heeresstrukturs:


ScoutJock23 Dec 2018 11:45 a.m. PST

Try and find a copy of Ultra Modern Army Lists and Organizations by B. A. Rea-Taylor of Tabletop Games. It is oop but I have seen copies at flea markets and booksellers at game conventions. It was published in 1982 so most of the organizations will work for the time frame you are looking for.

Lists go from Division down to individual vehicles and squads/fire teams as well as individual crew served weapons.

Buckeye AKA Darryl24 Dec 2018 3:55 p.m. PST

What is sad about all this is that I had a few different rules and lists, including the aforementioned Tabletop Games offering, decades ago, I let them slip away!

Thanks for the suggestions!

Dynaman878925 Dec 2018 7:36 p.m. PST

Firepower from Avalon Hill might have it.

RudyNelson27 Dec 2018 3:45 p.m. PST

Well I found my Armies of the World for 1979 based on 1978 data.
Outstanding book for basic info such as 6 home defense groups composed of 28 motorized battalions drawn from 300 active companies.
Other detailed breakdown of first units. A very detailed section on weapons and AFVs.

All countries are covered, edited by Chris Chant.

Another example is Albania with 1 Tank Bde and 8 Infantry beds, 2 tank bins ndependent and support units. Tank units have T54/55 SU 76 and K 63.
More info but this is an example.
Books like this can still be found through libraries, something we pre-internet folks used to do research. They can also find copies through the inter-library exchange program.
I got my copy while in the First Cavalry Division, thanks to my wife.

RudyNelson27 Dec 2018 8:07 p.m. PST

Stats in first paragraph was for West Germany.

LAV 7518 Jan 2019 4:46 p.m. PST

RudyNelson, thanks for info on the book. Just ordered it off Amazon.


Andy Tea15 Feb 2019 3:37 a.m. PST

that sounds like an amazing book – I think I'll have to get a copy

Legion 415 Feb 2019 8:57 a.m. PST

TO&Es were what you were actually "authorized". Verses what actually you have available/"on hand". I.e. what equipment you are short by not being issued yet, number of actual troops physically in the unit. Then unit strengths would be also be influenced by vehicles and equipment that are in maintenance/broken down. Troop that injured, sick, on leave, ETC's, etc.

So you could be short of equipment you are authorized by the TO&E. But the conditions of what you have actually on hand. E.g. my M113 Mech Co. was authorized 112 troops. But on any given day that number could fluctuate 10-20 based on all the things I mentioned before.

Or e.g. the Co. was authorized 32 NVGs PAS-7s, IIRC old fart … we only had 5 actually on hand. And were awaiting the rest. While I was in command we never got any of those we were short. Plus at any given time 2-3 could be down for maintenance. Leaving 2 or 3 available to deploy with the unit …

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