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"From island Bretons to Welsh ..." Topic

19 Posts

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Paskal Supporting Member of TMP20 Dec 2018 11:06 a.m. PST

At what time did island Bretons from present-day Wales become Welsh?

RittervonBek20 Dec 2018 11:09 a.m. PST

When the Anglo centric part of the country called us "foreigners" in their language. I believe the word is something similar to present day German "Waliesisch".

The Last Conformist21 Dec 2018 9:43 a.m. PST

In 580 when the WRG army list begins, of course! :p

Seriously, what do you mean by "become Welsh" here? When they started being called "Welsh"? When they became a separate nation from the other Brythonic peoples? Something else?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2018 10:10 a.m. PST

It's not nice to pull the tongue ;)

Why ? They began to be called "Welsh" when they become a separate nation from other island Breton peoples ?

Since then culture has changed?

Cyrus the Great21 Dec 2018 10:37 a.m. PST

When will you people learn not to feed the troll?

gbowen21 Dec 2018 11:05 a.m. PST

Er gwaetha pawb a phopeth, Ry'n ni yma o hyd

Cerdic Supporting Member of TMP21 Dec 2018 2:09 p.m. PST

About tea-time…

Ten Fingered Jack21 Dec 2018 2:32 p.m. PST

"Er gwaetha pawb a phopeth, Ry'n ni yma o hyd"

I didn't know the Welsh were descended from Cthulhu.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP22 Dec 2018 6:53 a.m. PST

In fact it is RittervonBek who is right, they remained the same but the germans baptized them otherwise, namely 'strangers' while they were at home …

We should just know when the word 'Welsh' appeared for the first…

Evidently and as if by "chance" nobody knows …

RittervonBek22 Dec 2018 7:02 a.m. PST

Da iawn Pascal.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2018 6:31 a.m. PST

Ya RittervonBek!

ie, chi chi sydd wedi dod o hyd i'r ateb iawn!

Nawr, hoffwn wybod pryd y ymddangosodd y gair 'Cymraeg' gyntaf?

Ac fel pe bai siawns, does neb yn gwybod …

gbowen24 Dec 2018 12:26 p.m. PST

Mae 'r geiriadur prifysgol Cymru yn dweud; 1188 oddi wrth Gerallt Cymro 'Kembraec, linguam Kambricam'

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP27 Dec 2018 6:14 a.m. PST

Mae geiriadur prifysgol Cymru yn dweud: 1188.Interessant, ond beth yn union?

Gwydion30 Dec 2018 6:55 p.m. PST

Mae John Davies yn dweud yn Hanes Cymru, y gair 'Cymry' yn defnyddiodd cyntaf ger 580. Efallai o'r Moliant Cadwallon.

Y ddau enw, Cymru a Prydain, oedden bodoli gyda'i gilydd am sawl canrif ar l hynny. 'Cymru' enillodd.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP31 Dec 2018 12:32 p.m. PST

Y ddau enw, Cymru a Phrydain neu Gymru a Llydaw ?

Bloavez mad, leun a joa, a blijadur hag a brosperite hag ar baradoz e fin ho puhez

huevans01102 Jan 2019 8:01 a.m. PST

Paskal, no one really knows the full range of Celtic tribes in the British Isles. At one time, Celtic people inhabited ALL of Britain and Ireland, although there were distinct linguistic and genetic dissimilarities between the Irish and the British groups.

During the period 400 – 800 AD, Germanic tribes suppressed those Celtic peoples living in what is now England and South Eastern Scotland. Over the centuries, those peoples stopped speaking Celtic dialects and learned to speak Old English dialects.

The only Celtic speaking areas remaining by the late Medieval period were Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Whether the Celtic tribes in, say, Yorkshire spoke a different dialect from those in Cornwall or North Wales is only something we can speculate about. There is no written record of the end of Celtic England and what exactly happened and when.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP03 Jan 2019 1:03 a.m. PST

huevans011, genetic dissimilarities between the Irish and the British groups?

You mean Gaelic and Britonic …

"British" it's at the end of the 17th century …

The only remaining parts of the world Medieval period were Wales, Scotland and Ireland?

And Cornwall?

By the late Medieval period? These Celtic languages are still spoken in Wales, in Scotland and in Ireland, not forgetting Cornwall as well as by their Breton successors in Brittany in 8 different Breton languages …

These are the first Celts conquered by the germans who have "forgotten" their mother tongues …

Not the others.

But the original question is: "At what time did the Bretons from present-day Wales become Welsh?".

For example, do we know when the word "Welsh" was written for the first time, in an old Saxon text, for example?

Gwydion21 Jan 2019 1:05 p.m. PST

In a 925 manuscript copy of the Laws of Ine c690. Assuming the scribe was faithful to the original then c690. This appears to be the earliest known use of the term in this context.

Blwyddyn Newydd dda i chi hefyd.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP21 Jan 2019 11:37 p.m. PST

Dymunaf gymaint chi!

Yes that's what I thought …

Ie, dyna yr oeddwn i'n ei feddwl, mae'r Llydaweg yn cael ei dyblu yn Gymraeg …

Gwydion wnaethoch chi weld y "O'r Brydeinwyr ynys i'r Alban …" Pwnc?

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