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"Wargaming the Second Seminole War?" Topic


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Paskal Supporting Member of TMP19 Dec 2018 8:56 a.m. PST

Hello everyone,

In your opinion, what is the best wargame rules to reflect the Second Seminole War?

axabrax19 Dec 2018 9:22 a.m. PST

Muskets and Tomahawks or Sharpe Practice would be my votes. If you wanted to go really small maybe Song of Drums and Tomahawks. I'd always wanted to write up some lists for this conflict but quite never finished the research.

Microbiggie19 Dec 2018 9:27 a.m. PST

I've been using Sharp Practice for years now. Easy to customize for this war. Not a lot of actual combat casualties so the morale and friction rules fit nicely

surdu200519 Dec 2018 12:27 p.m. PST

Just about any skirmish rules will work. I think I would recommend Brother Against Brother or GASLIGHT.

RudyNelson19 Dec 2018 8:05 p.m. PST

TSATF works

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP19 Dec 2018 10:20 p.m. PST

In fact all the rules on Northeastern Indians would be usable for South-East Indians, but the Indians must react like Indians …

Rules for the Indian Wars of the second half of XIX would not be valid ?

And "Too few to fight too many to die "(TFTFTMTD !?) and its specifically seminole list below!?

List N 1 The Eastern Forest Tribes Seminole Army of the
Second Seminole War 1835 to 1842:

Warriors on foot with bows 4 points.
Warriors on foot with muskets 6 points.
Warriors on foot with bows and muskets -7 points.
2 to 9 units of 2 to 8 stands of 2 figures.

Seminoles must have at least three times as many muskets as bowmen.

Seminoles can have up to 8 stands equipped with 9 pts muzzle-loading rifles to replace musket-equipped stands.

Seminoles can have up to 4 stands equipped with muskets or muzzle-loaded rifles counted as 'Sharpshooters'. (+ 6 pts per stand)

Chef Osceola is counted as exceptional (+ 25 pts for his stand)

No. 13 – U.S. Army in the West 1833 – 1890:

Despite its title, this list can be used for the U.S.forces engaged in the second semole war in Florida, which continued long after the end of the "regular in the East" list period, but neither the Texas-Rangers nor the Friendly Indians, can not be used to fight the Seminoles.

Dragons, 'Mounted Rifles' or Cavalry. Cavalry with muzzle loading rifles – 8 pts.
0 to 9 units from 2 to 8 stands of 2 figures.
Regular U.S. Infantry: Regular with muskets – 4 pts.
0 to 9 units of 2 to 8 stands of 3/4 figures.
Indian friends: Warriors on horseback with bows – 10 pts -, or 'untrained' with muskets – 10 pts.
0 to 5 units of 2 to 8 stands of 2 figures.
Light smoothbore field gun: 30 pts.
0 to 2 units of 1 stand of 1 cannon with 2 to 4 artillery figures.

After 1860, any or allof the cavalry may have revolvers in addition to their long guns. (+ 3 pts)

After 1854 up to half of the regulars can be re-armed with muzzle loading rifles. (+3 pts)

After 1866 one to all elements can be rearmed with breech-loading weapons (rifles if infantry and 10 pts per stand; carbines if cavalry and 12 pts per stand)

These are the mistakes I found …

False! From 1833, the first U.S. Dragons regiment was equipped with a rifle as new as the Hall.

Invented by John Hall, experienced since 1816 and adopted in 1819, the Hall was the first weapon to be loaded by the breech that was officially chosen by an army.


The 1833, 1836, 1840, 1842, and 1843 1833, 1843, 1843 and 1843 Hall Carbines distributed to the U.S.Dragons all had a modern Fulminate percussion batterie called by the American Cap and Ball.

From 1847, the cavalry gradually adopted a new carbine, called "U.S.Model 1847 Cavaly Musketoon".

Alas, with a classic percussion batterie, she loaded herself with a stick as before.

This apparent backtracking was probably dictated by the hallmark of the Hall carbine: the loss of power due to the poor sealing of its tilting bolt. In conclusion, from 1833 to 1846, one to all elements of dragons can be rearmed with breech-loading weapons. (12 pts per stand)

After 1880 one to all cavalry elements can be rearmed with breech-loading weapons and repetition. (15 pts by stand)

These are the mistakes I found …

False! Coming from the very first research of Samuel Colt, the barrel rifle companion of the first patented revolver caused a sensation with its charge to ten coups.

Of the 100 examples manufactured, 30 were lost at sea and 50 were used in Florida during the second Seminole war where they were damaged or lost.

In conclusion, during the second Seminole War up to 5 stands of dragons can be equipped with breech-loading weapons and repetition. (15 pts by stands)

It was then from 1862 that the U.S. cavalry would have regiments equipped with breech-loading carbines and repetition. (15 pts per stands), these are the Spencer models of which there were more than 94,000 units in service for cavalry and infantry during the Civil War and Henry to ten thousand copies in service in the United States. infantry during the Secession War.

Spencer served at least until 1875 in the U.S. Army.

After 1860 one to all field gun stands can be upgraded to medium smoothbore guns or light- rifle guns (48 pts)

After 1865 a piece of artillery can be rearmed with a Gatling or Hotchkiss machine gun (36 pts)

The term "hotchkiss machine gun" refers to Hotchkiss revolver gun, a Gatling revolving barrel machine invented in 1872 by Benjamin B. Hotchkiss (1826-1885), founder of Hotchkiss & Co.

It was built with oil-cooled, fast-firing, striped guns, having a rectangular breech block that moved in a mortise.

It was designed to be light enough to accompany the cavalry and had a range greater than the infantry weapons.

All or none of the U.S. regular infantry elements may be classified as regular mounted (+ 2 pts).

Between 1846 and 1865, up to 2 units of any type could be replaced by Texas Rangers: Gallant cavalry with muzzle-loading rifles and revolvers (14 pts).

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP22 Dec 2018 6:02 a.m. PST

Nobody knows this rule ???

Henry Martini23 Dec 2018 5:45 a.m. PST

I have TFtF,TMtD, and will probably use it when I get around to painting my 15mm Seminole War figures.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP23 Dec 2018 5:52 a.m. PST

It's better for the 15 mm?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP24 Dec 2018 5:45 a.m. PST

But which manufactures make 15 mm figures for these wars ?

FossilSN24 Dec 2018 7:55 a.m. PST

Freikorps sold by Quick Reaction Force

link

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP27 Dec 2018 5:34 a.m. PST

Ah it's funny because I did not know that the Freikorp15 were still sold, but I only use the "25mm", but on the other hand I did not think that the flat cap had appeared during this war, I thought the regulars knew only the foldable leather cap …

For the game I will try "Death in a distant land" by Jon Sutherland and Tim Hall …

FossilSN28 Dec 2018 9:17 a.m. PST

The flat forage cap is listed as 1839 so its a fair question as to how widespread they were by the end of the war. Since all the larger engagements are earlier in the war, it would make most sense to stick with the leather folding caps. I guess it also depends on how much of a stickler you are for details. I like the idea of using the New Orleans Grays from Boot Hill miniatures with their pinwheel hats even if those hats were less common by the start of the 2nd war.

Have you seen much in the way of mounted Seminoles in any scales?

Haven't heard of that one. Got a link?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP29 Dec 2018 5:30 a.m. PST

It's interesting these stories of caps and uniforms for the U.S. Army, but what are your sources?

Frontier Miniatures had in the last century a fine range of 25 mm figures for the second seminole war including seminole riders…

FossilSN29 Dec 2018 11:11 a.m. PST

Here's a quick reference.

PDF link

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP30 Dec 2018 11:28 a.m. PST

Thank you FossilSN.

FossilSN, the "New Orleans Grays" is this troop that fought during the Texas Independence War and you think that their flat cap "pinwheel hats" will look like the U.S. Army "Pattern 1839 forage Cap"?

Henry Martini30 Dec 2018 12:25 p.m. PST

US infantry sculpts from its Mexican War range are listed in the Freikorps Seminole range section of the QRF online catalogue.

FossilSN30 Dec 2018 12:46 p.m. PST

You're welcome Paskal. Look at page 8 of that PDF. The pinwheel hat was used by the US army from 1825 to 1833. It's conceivable that some regulars were still using them at the start of the war. You could also use them as state militia units. If New Orleans had a militia in 1836 that used those uniforms in Texas, why wouldn't any of the militias sent to Florida at that same time have similar uniforms? I would just use it as an opportunity to make units that are visually distinct.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP01 Jan 2019 11:32 p.m. PST

FossilSN, the uniforms of the "New Orleans Grays" makes me think of the uniform of the regular infantry of the Republic of Texas after the war of independence.

FossilSN02 Jan 2019 5:22 p.m. PST

I never really thought about the uniforms of the Republic of Texas, but yeah they do. Looking at the variety of uniforms used by Texas, they look like a combination of 1830s and 1840s US troops with the colors of Confederates. Interesting stuff.

link

The Boot Hill miniatures appear to have indented lines in the hats. I suppose you could paint them to emphasize or de-emphasize the lines depending on what you were using them for.

link

Does anyone play Republic of Texas war games?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP03 Jan 2019 12:08 a.m. PST

Me not yet, but it will be done … It is enough to use rules on the U.S.-Mexico war or better old rules of skirmishes.

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