"Grenz-husaren" Topic

I am still looking for some additional information regarding organization of grenz-husaren. I've gone to Kronoskaf and even written to Richard Couture, the response was, as usual, very prompt but even he was not able to shed much more light on these apparently elusive little s due to lack of detailed records. If you look at Kronoskaf it refers to the grenz-husaren as being assigned, tactically, 2 squadrons to a grenz battalion from the same district. But then Kronoskaf then says that some districts show 2-4 grenz infantry battalions but only 1 grenz-husaren squadron? Anyone have anything further, my copy of Gunther Rothenberg's study of the Austrian frontier forces is, alas, long gone the way of the dodo.

Well, let me try to answer your query. After all, it seems the kronoskaf SYW-Project article on the Grenz-Hussars was my work. The edit is correct.
However, I cannot recollect writing »»Tactically a Grenz-Husar [sic.] squadron was assigned to a foot battalion of the same Generalate.««
Thats news to me.
The information for my initial edit came exclusively from the Grosser Generalstab edit on the Austrian Army. The singular best source in condensed form around to the present day.
By 1756 most Grenz-Infantry regiments had arrived at the similar organization as the line infantry. There was no cavalry element as an integral part of the regiment existing. With a quick read of Grosser Generalstab article I couln't find this detail.
Possibly this detail belongs to an organization implemented when doing service along the Turkish border of a particular Grenz-District or Generalat. Makes much more sense. But makes no sense for the European Theatre of the SYW.

Cheers,
Christian
crogges7ywarmies.blogspot.com

I don't mean to be too argumentative and you obviously have more and better information than I and are apparently fluent in German, whereas I can't even order sauerkraut and schnitzel, but I did recheck and have the quote:
Wartime Organisation
At the outbreak of the Seven Years' War, the Austrian Grenz-Hussars who had to serve in European conflicts amounted to 1,000 men (one third of the entire force).
Tactically a Grenz-Husar squadron was assigned to a foot battalion of the same Generalate.
I'm not exactly sure what "tactically" means in this context but what I am trying to ascertain, bottom line, is how many grenz-hussars am I to be allowed and of which units? I'm just trying to be accurate with the organization and uniforms. I currently have the Karlstater Lykaner infantry regiment(please don't hold me to blame for the spelling I told you I'm incompetent with German)and want to build at least one more regiment of infantry. I was going to build the Karlstater Hussars to go with the infantry and I was wondering if it matters if the units are from the same Generalate or not?

By the way, I don't recall being too profane in my original but someone "bleeped" me. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the term I used was "little s". Does that mean some thing else overseas than it does here? Not being snide, just curious, I am trying real hard to curb my normally curlish and cynical asides. I'm really quite harmless, but being a loveable old curmudgeon is getting harder and harder these days.

Good day to all and "Merry Christmas!
To my British friends "Happy Christmas"

I'm afraid I am missing actual strength figures. The Liccaner Grenzers were with Lorraine's army in the battle of Prague. Thats the regiment Loudon served in-later commanded in 1757. The BO also lists 2 escadrons Karlstadt Grenz-Hussars. So here you are. I think you'll have to search all the other OB's as well to find out. Follow the path of the Liccaner through every campaign.
By the way, Henry Lloyds history of the SWY does have a strength report for Lorraine's army just before the battle of Prague—see in the e-book section

Cheers,
Christian

Thank you again Christian, I have been trying to do just that but at present my reference resources are rather scarce and my current finances don't permit too much spending on my hobbies so I am limited to a couple of old Greenwood and Ball uniform books, a couple of Osprey references and Kronoskaf.

OK now, someone out there is yanking my chain, they "bleeped" me again!!! This is getting "bleeping" crazy.

In Christopher Duffy's book puvlished 1977 – "The Army of Maria Theresa" – he mentions each unit of the army in Appendix: List of Regiments.

7 Yr War engagenents:

Carlstadter Grenz-Hussar saw a good deal of action in the 7YW – no engagements mentioned

Waradiners – Distinguished at Landeshut.

Banal – Saw action mainly in Saxony

Slavonishes Grenz-HUsaren, Ditinguished at Strehlen (1760).

He does given uniform colours for each, but nothing about size of units engaged.

GdeP

Thank you Garde, I seem to recall that as well. I let go, very stupidly I might add, of my copy of "Armies of Maria Theresa" and "Armies of Frederick the Great" some years ago. I looked them up again not too long ago to find that to purchase them now would cost me two to three times what I paid for them. Kinda reflects my overall investment history over the years.

Hello, von Schwartz:

I looked into my copy of Christopher Duffy's "By Force of Arms," 2008, and he has more to say about these units. I combine notes here. In 1977, he commented on uniforms but not much in 2008.

Christopher Duffy's book published 1977 – "The Army of Maria Theresa" – he mentions each unit of the army in Appendix: List of Regiments.

Carlstadter Grenz-Hussar saw a good deal of action in the 7YW:

2008: Lobositz, Prague, Kolin, w/Hadik's raid on Berlin. Small actions in Saxony – 1759-61. Silesia 1862 (MUST mean 1762!)

1977: no engagements mentioned

2008: no reliable uniform information.

1977 Kalpak w/red bag, dark blue pelisse, dolman ad pants w/yellow lace. Dark blue sabretache with yellow eagle, yellow and white barrel sash, black boots, sabre with brass furniture.

Waradiners – (1977) Distinguished at Landeshut.
1977: Kalpak with red bag, red dolman and pelisse w/white lace; red/white barrel sash; red pants. Sabre with iron furniture. 2008 essentially the same.

2008: In action throughout the war. Distinguished at Maxen, good general record.

Banal – (1977) Saw action mainly in Saxony

1977: Kalpak w/red bag; dark blue dolman, red pelisse, yellow lace; red/yellow barrel sash; dark blue pants. Red sabretache w/double black eagle, sword w/brass furniture.

2008: No reliable uniform information.

2008: In action throughout the war.

Slavonishes Grenz-HUsaren, (1977) Distinguished at Strehlen (1760).

2008: Distinguished in minor actions in Saxony, 1760, 1761. Important for security of Military Borders as whole, as the Slavonian Border was the most exposed to Turkish invasion.

2008: no reliable uniform information.

1977: red (or green) pelisse & dolman w/yellow lace. Red pants. Nothing more.

Looks like you can have fun with your own uniform details!

GdeP

Thank you again sir, the information is much appreciated. After going through a fair number of OOBs where Grenzers are noted it appears that there is little or no relationship between the Grenz infantry units involved and the Grenz hussar units involved. That is to say, the hussars may be involved but not the infantry or visa versa, so I can mix and match as I please!

Absolutely right von Schwartz! I use 8 figures for a cavalry squadron, 6 squadrons to an Austrian regiment. All my regiments are "composites" – two squadrons of 3 regiments to form an Austrian cuirassier, dragoon, or hussar regiment.

In Old Glory 15'a, I chose to do single battalions of the Prussian and Austrian regiments with the most battle actions.

Austrian infantry white red facings can be any of several regiments, as can those with dark blue. Even the flags or "Colours" are generic.

The Prussians are another matter, with most of the fusilier regiments seeing little. or obscure, battle history. Prussian Cuirassier and Dragoon regiments had 5 squadrons (using 8 figures) – in two dragoon examples actually 2 "battalions" of 5 squadrons. Prussian hussar squadrons were smaller. and I use 6 figures for a squadron, 5 squadrons to a battalion. 30 figures for a full regiment.

GdeP

I made an error in the last post. Prussian Hussar regiments of 10 squadrons of 6 figures would be 60 figures. 30 would be a "battalion." I understand that the late-forming Belling hussars eventually had 15 squadrons – black uniform with light green facings.

GdeP

Must be an unusually colorful lot. What rule system are you using? I haven't had much variety as I have used Koneig Krieg exclusively for the last several years having used only one other, "Frederick the Great" rule system prior. Frederick the Great was a nice rule system, we made a few "in club" rule modifications. It is now, unforntunately, out of print.
With KK I can set my cavalry up by squadron, Prussian dragoons and cuirassier, 3 figures per squadron (150 men and horses) with 5 squadrons and Prussian hussars 2 figures per squadron and 10 squadrons. Austrian it is similar, 3 figures per squadron, but the mediums and heavies get only 5 field squadrons, the 6th being the elites, usually, but not always seconded off to form composite carabinier or horse grenadier units. The hussars are six 3 figure squadrons, except for the Grenz which are usually only 2 squadrons of 2 figures each. I'm using unit strengths from Kronoskaf, most are, admittedly book strengths.

I have only been to 1 game in the past years, but it was a set of simplified house rules evolved from Koenigs Krieg. We originally formed infantry units of 12 figures, 3 per stand, so they could form square – not unheard of in the era.

For my own collection, I have been building infantry "battalions" of 48 figures – 3 ranks of 16 each. For the Prussians, I use 4 sergeants, but for the Austrians only 2. Officer on each end of he first line, colours in the center of the second line, and sergeants at each end of the 3rd line, with drummers next to them.

Frederick said he wanted his dragoon regiments to equal a decimated infantry battalion, but five squadrons of 8 figures if still a bit small if decimated means losses of 10%.

GdeP

You're being very precise as to the historically proper arrangement of the line. With 12 to 16 figure infantry battalions and 2-3 figure squadrons I don't get that exacting, besides in 15mm its nearly impossible for the average person to discern the difference between sergeants and private soldiers, officers have a little more lace and sergeants do have some uniform alterations but once again, we're talking 15mm. You are also using 3 rank formations, whereas KK has their basing of 4 figures 2 abreast and 2 deep, and 3 to 4 bases per battalion.
What kind of figure scale is that, 1:20?

The maximum ratio would be 1:20, but one can call it 1:12 for later war, worn-down units. My gang her in Pennsylvania has long given up on these large units and large games, trying for 2-3 hour battles instead. Mine will be just for show.

My French Napoleonics (30 or 28 mm) were started in the 1970's, using 1:20, so 36 for a battalion. We have gamed in the past with 12, 18 and 36 figure units, so my French are in 3 ranks of 12, using 1 and 2 figure stands, so I can use them as 12's, 18's and 36's. My first rank would have an officer at the front right end, and a sergeant at the front left end. Second rank is all private men. The 3rd rank had an Eagle bearer sergeant or office, sometimes flanked by 2 sergeants. and 1 drummer, centered. Another option is corporal or sergeant at each end of the line. If I have a decent sapeur figure, I put it with the Grenadier company, and sometimes – as with victrix plastics – a cornetist with the Voltigeurs.

The rear rank with the Eagle can be called the 1st Battalion of 12, the first rank can be the 2nd battalion, and the 2nd rank of all private men the 3rd battalion. When gamed as 36 figure units, they all have an eagle – all first battalions – which it not realistic. Only my 26eme de ligne has no eagle, for the unit had 3 battalions in Spain, but the eagle was trapped in the West Indies!

GdeP

GdP, I'm curious, why did your gaming group give up on large units and large games? What was the reason for 2-3 hour games?

Even with Grand tactical rules, like KK, you can scale them down to smaller unit actions to help reduce playing time. I understand wanting to get to 2-3 hours games, more games, less time, less complaints from the SWMBO about not being home to do chores.

My gang gave up on big unit, and long games:

We typically gamed on Friday evenings, 7:30 PM to 1:00 AM'ish. Gathered from about an hour in several directions to games near Philadelphia. That was some 15 years ago.

I moved to Texas in 2002, back here in 2015. I'm 82, rest of the gang somewhat younger, but too over the hill for such long games.

One gamer retired to Florida

two others passed away.

One gave up night driving.

Just the natural wear of getting older.

GdeP

I've always said "Getting old ain't fer sissies but, it beats the alternative".

GdeP,
For all great Generals…time does take it's toll! But it sounds like you have had a glorious time! In the end it is all we can hope for!
Cheers!

Happy New Year to you sir!!

BTW, what happened to your post about Maria Theresa vs Frederick the Great?