"Javelins as a hand to hand melee weapon....." Topic

Were they ever used for that or could they have been used for that?

A javelin is simply a long sharp stick. You can stab someone with it, whether you throw it at them or not. So yes, they could have been used for that. Were they probably used in that way at times? On a guess, yes. Was it a regularly expected or trained for possibility? I've got no clue. I'd say it depends on whether the javeliner had a better melee weapon available, or time to switch to the same.
But in most cases, given the nature of ancient to early medieval warfare, I'd guess that the distance at which two forces encountered each other, combined with the likely type of terrain, would mean that the issue rarely came up, with the javelins being expended by the time the parties closed into melee. But that's all speculation.

Just call it a spear and stab away…

Possible, but javelins were lighter than spears and tended to be shorter so would be more likely to break in melee and have less range than someone with a spear.

I wouldn't want to try that with the pilum that had the metal weight on it and wooden peg holding the iron shaft to the wooden handle. You'd be better off at close range trying to throw that at the other person's foot then using your sword.

Spears are cheap. Perhaps the cheapest effective melee weapon.
Swords, daggers, axes… all quantitatively more expensive.

Plus a spear has reach.
A javelin is a shorter spear. It still outreaches a Sword.
I'm not throwing mine away unless I can run away. It's likely the only knife I have is for cutting meat.

I think of a spear as having more heft. One-on-one, a spear might not be able to drive through a good shield, but it might be able to push a shield aside, or render a stunning blow, even if the point was not involved. I think of a javelin as being less robust, and not having either the force or durability of a spear if not thrown. Still, I'd rather have a javelin than a short knife.

The King's Mirror (13C Norway) says you should have two spears, throw the one but keep the other for close combat, because a spear is better than a sword when fighting in battle.

Archaeologists sometimes divide pointy stick heads from Medieval Scandinavia into spearheads and javelin-tips, but the (near-)contemporary sources don't seem to know any such distinction.

A great wiki on the Javelin.

they even mention the strap that the Ancients used to increase range. this is why the spear-thrower atiatl went out of favor.

Javelin armed troops are theorized to have cause Chariots to leave favor. (see 1177 bc the year civilization collapsed.

Most cavalry in the ancient world where armed with Javelins as with out stirrups an infantry man could just lie down and get away. So sticky long stick solved that.

I think most javelins were pretty sturdy. A light one wouldn't have much penetration power after all. The Romans weighted their darts for this reason.

All the museum javelins I've seen would take quite a lot of breaking.

Just lie on the ground when cavalry attacked huh? Even the smaller horses back then wouldn't have been nice trampling over your back.

horses pretty smart as far as where they step;.

a human body is not stable so a horse will try to put his foot down on the ground.

add a shield and lying down is a good tatic to get away from a rider with a sword.

now with sturrups you can stand up and lean over and get that reach.

The Macedonians developed a saddle that had horns that gripped you legs. in military modeling magazine in the 1980 a British professor remade one. He gave it to the jousting society who used it. It kept you in the saddle under impact and it as good for jousting as anything they had. But you could not reach. this explained to me why the Greek Cav where shock type and could use the sarrissa as a lance.

Accounts of the Napoleonic wars mention troops getting away from the Cav by lying down.

Big animals like sure footing, which is why rodeo clowns can do their life saving jobs. the clown will go down and the horse or bull usually will then step away. Of course their is the mean or mad animal who will not care and just stomp you.

I've been to a lot of rodeos and don't recall ever seeing a clown lie down in front of a bull. That's a good way to get yourself gored and trampled. Bulls often don't go around things if they think they can go through. The clowns aren't generally in the arena during the bronc riding. I've also seen saddle broncs that tried to jump on fallen riders with all four feet if the pickup men weren't able to get the rider away cleanly.

As somebody who's worked with cattle and horses all my life I don't really by the animal will always avoid an object theory. In general yes but exceptions are pretty common. And if they are charging at you enmass they may not be able to avoid you even if they wanted. Once herd animals get moving they don't like stopping. I've seen horses and cattle pile into pretty solid walls and fences when they were in larger groups. I'd take my chances standing or crouching before laying flat. I think I'd take my chances with the rider getting a hit on me over getting stepped on. Less body area when standing.

My personal opinion (take or leave as you wish) is that a horse that you know will be used in combat will be trained not to shy easily and would be willing to close in or trample the enemy. Kind of useless if you can't get close enough to touch your opponent.

Now I'm not saying that the Napoleonic references are wrong. They were using every horse possible and many of them wouldn't have been considered suitable cavalry mounts at other times. It might also have worked if you were dealing with scattered groups and not a tight packed unit.

Umm, suppose I should mention something about javelins. Isn't it mostly the length of the stick that differentiates whether you'd throw it or not? Javelin at the smaller end up to pike at the large side with somewhere around 6' being a good multipurpose size?

Medieval knights certainly trained their horses to kick and bite and there are plenty of images from the ancient Romans showing cavalry stomping over infantry to suggest horses were trained to do just that back then.