"ECW flags still in existence" Topic

Just come across the existence of two ECW cavalry cornets – the Yate flags at Bromesberrow Church in Gloucester (reproductions now on display at the Commandery, Worcester). Royalist Capt-Lieutenant Rice Yate's cornet, and what appears to be a captured Parliamentarian cornet which could be either Captain Nicholas Bragge's, or Major-General Skippon's.
Plus of course there is Gell's standard in the National Army Museum.
I know of no other original standards in existence. But seeing as the Yate flags were completely unknown to me until recently, are there any other original Civil War flags in existence?
Despite what was claimed on a different forum, the London Trained Band standards are not on display at the Museum of London as they do not exist (our knowledge of these flags come from contemporary descriptions and illustrations)

I thought the Gell family retain their flag and that there is a blue colour with white piles wavy in the NAM but that isn't the Gell colour, which is yellow with blue stencilled stars.

Gell's standard on display at NAM

Can't find an image to embed of the Bromesberrow Church cornets, but here's a link to a local newspaper article with a good picture link

I've never seen an image of the Gell colour – thank you for posting it. The cavalry colours both look beautifully made.

So to answer your question, there is a blue infantry colour in existence that was on display at the NAM many years ago.

Those cornets are tiny.
Didn't know about the blue NAM standard. Some more digging required methinks. Thanks

NAM online collection only lists Gell's standard, no others. A look through Fahnen und Standarten V does show a light blue standard with three piles wavy, which they list as being in the NAM collection.

I found another regiment of foot standard listed as existing in the Dyott family collection: dark red with a royal coat of arms enclosed within a garter belt.

F&S lists one of the Bromesberrow corners (as Bragge's) but fails to mention the Yate cornet.

I was also under the impression that the National Museum of Scotland had a Covenanter's flag, although where that snippet of information came from I know not. Can anyone confirm or deny it?

I've heard of the covenanters flag, iirc in Stuart reids book Scots flags. No idea if it's still at the same museum. The museum of London have or had a room divider made from six cavalry cornets stitched together, probably royalist 1648 Kent rising.

There's also a yellow ensign with black lion devices probably of Alexander carews cornish parliamentarian foot that briefly existed at start of ecw. Its at Antony House near Plymouth.

Thanks for that Timbo. So good to hear that I am not losing my marbles and imagining a Covenanters flag

The blue colour I mentioned is shown in the Airfix English Civil War book, page 54. However, it is not ECW but dates from 1641. On page 53 in the same book is shown an infantry colour that is attributed to the ECW and that is in the NAM collection. The colour of the flag is not given.

The cavalry cornets are much smaller than we'd probably like them to be. I consider them to be T-towel sized. I painted my own that are close to scale size, just a tad bigger. I just paint a tiny impression of the design. It works for me. All the commercial offerings I've seen are much too big. That may or may not bother you.

Thanks for that Timmo. Not looked in my Airfix book for a wee while.

Page 53 flag – that looks remarkably like the Lamb of St Wilfred, found on Preston's town coat of arms.

Page 54 flag is the one illustrated in Fahnen und Standarten.

I've contacted NAM asking about the page 54 flag.

Cavalry cornets would be miniscule at 15mm if accurately scaled

Yes they would be tiny in 15mm but then all that would make them really easy to paint – I'd just do them a plain colour. I also think that would look fine. I'd prefer a scale flag with less or no detail to one that is vastly oversize.

I think there has been a trend in wargaming to do flags much bigger than they really were and mount them on huge great long poles – neither look good to me. I know folks like to focus on them and say they bring colour to the table and whilst both of those points are right the negative effect is that they make the table look smaller.

I think there has been a trend in wargaming to do flags much bigger than they really were and mount them on huge great long poles – neither look good to me. I know folks like to focus on them and say they bring colour to the table and whilst both of those points are right the negative effect is that they make the table look smaller.

I read somewhere that they were 6' square; sounds excessive to me but the ones I use are basically an 1" square which works out to about that. My regular opponent likes huge flags.

Yep infantry ensigns 6 foot square or 6ft 6" even. Cavalry cornets were really small, around 2ft Square or less.

NAM sent me a colour picture of the blue with piles wavy standard.

Great design. Very interesting.

Nice KYPD, if I remember it was suggested that this was a pre-ECW flag. Although I don't think it will ever be properly identified, one does fit, Sir Jacob Astley's regiment in the First Bishops War of 1639. This was blue and White but no mention of design. Could be but no way to prove this!

The curator who sent the picture to me said they no precious little about it

It's a relief to see that the cross and piles wavy aren't perfect –neither are my model flags. For my Minifigs true 25mm figures I do my infantry colours 26mm square.

I'm also doing some older style colours for my Trained Bands (not London ones). I've made these a little larger at 28mm. I believe this increased size reflects the historical practice.

The ultimate excuse for shonky painting – historical accuracy! The Civil Wars, surely the ultimate conflict to model for average and rubbish modellers.

Having just popped into NAM I had a 'go' on the interactive display next to Gell's standard. The information about the blue piles wavy flag suggests it dates from 1688 and belonged to Prince William of Orange (before he became King)