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"My guys are the good guys?" Topic


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Action Log

04 Dec 2018 12:49 p.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Crossposted to Wargaming in General board


898 hits since 4 Dec 2018
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian04 Dec 2018 12:44 p.m. PST

One of our readers once said:

For the duration of the game, the side I'm playing are the goodies. The opposition are the baddies.

Do you agree?

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP04 Dec 2018 12:53 p.m. PST

No, 1st SS will always be the bad guys, not that I would play them.

That's why the 18th century is so nice. No bad guys or good guys. Just rich people going to war to become richer at the expense of thousands or hundreds of thousands of poor people's lives.

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP04 Dec 2018 1:23 p.m. PST

No. Often bad guys are bad guys. And it's not mutually exclusive: sometimes bad guys fight other bad guys.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP04 Dec 2018 1:31 p.m. PST

Do Dark Elves know they are Evil?
Did Hitler?
Stalin?

But I always am Good. Not necessarily Lawful Good. Just Goid.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP04 Dec 2018 1:32 p.m. PST

*1 Gunfreak
Powdered Whigs and beauty marks.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP04 Dec 2018 2:44 p.m. PST

Stalin?

Basically, the protective measures and other activities he undertook indicate that he knew he was self serving at any cost to others. Whether he considered that evil or actually believed in Social Darwinism, who knows?

----
To the OP – NO. I play modern warlords. People who are willing to impress children into warfare and let them and anyone else die under any circumstances to advance their personal agenda. Not good guys, even if I am playing them.

Forager04 Dec 2018 2:45 p.m. PST

For the most part, yes. My guys are the "good guys". That said, one of the reasons I like to play Eastern Front WWII is both sides are the "bad guys". But even then it is a matter of degree. My guys may be "bad guys", but the other side are "worse guys"! :-p

Korvessa04 Dec 2018 2:55 p.m. PST

So if you're Finland in WWII – just who are the good guys and bad guys?
(other than Finland of course)

Dragon Gunner04 Dec 2018 3:36 p.m. PST

I won't even have this discussion with someone I game with. As soon as they get self righteous, obnoxious or disrespectful over something this petty and irrevelant they are GONE! We are talking about pushing toy soldiers around on a table they do not define my values or beliefs. If I play 40K Chaos does that mean I am evil? If I play Waffen SS does that mean I am evil? Some people would say yes and then proceed to grandstand for attention and seek to pick a fight. I have no time for them or their posts.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP04 Dec 2018 4:24 p.m. PST

If I play Waffen SS does that mean I am evil?

Yes.

And doubly so are the clowns (usually obese) who wear "1st Waffen SS European Tour" tee shirts.

I'm glad you don't play in my group. I certainly would not play in yours.

Dragon Gunner04 Dec 2018 6:01 p.m. PST

Winston the people I game with would tolerate you for one evening out of politeness then never invite you back. If you behave in person like you do on this forum you would be escorted to the door.

Oh and by the way I own no Waffen SS memorabilia or T-Shirts if you were implying something to bolster your statement.

Calling me evil for pushing around toy soldiers is over the top and laughable!

Silurian04 Dec 2018 6:03 p.m. PST

No. I know full well if I'm playing 'baddies', be they Huns or Orcs, and am happy to proclaim so!

"Hans, are ve the baddies?"
YouTube link

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP04 Dec 2018 8:41 p.m. PST

I love internet tough guys.
Real badass.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP04 Dec 2018 8:53 p.m. PST

Actually, I think it's rather pathetic, and weird, that someone should be so defiant and sensitive at the same time about playing Waffen SS.
Good day to you, Sir.

ZULUPAUL Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2018 1:27 a.m. PST

I have played "bad guys" SS, Orcs but it is a game after all. The only thing I do not care for are demonic forces & will not have them or play them.

Legion 405 Dec 2018 1:50 a.m. PST

It's just a game guys … playing with toy soldiers … I don't read too much into it. Sometimes I played Allies, sometimes Axis, sometimes SEATO, sometimes VC/NVA, sometimes NATO sometimes, Warsaw Pact, sometimes Humans, sometimes Aliens, etc., etc., etc.

The only thing I probably would not or have had the occasion to play are terrorists/jihadis … i.e. PLO, Hezbollah, AQ, ISIS, Taliban, etc. Their crimes against humanity are current/recent. I find them repugnant beyond belief … but again it is only a game played with toys. GHQ even makes ISIS … so someone is playing them ! link

I must have been a Knights Templar in another life … evil grin

warwell05 Dec 2018 2:22 a.m. PST

My games (typically fantasy or pulp sci-fi) are usually structured with clear good vs. bad sides. I play solo so I have to run both sides, however my rules generally automate the bad guys while I can focus on the valiant defenders of right and good.

Dragon Gunner05 Dec 2018 5:24 a.m. PST

"I love internet tough guys.
Real badass."- Winston

I had the same assessment about you!

"Actually, I think it's rather pathetic, and weird, that someone should be so defiant and sensitive at the same time about playing Waffen SS.
Good day to you, Sir."- Winston

Defiant and sensitive describes you Winston I am not on the defense for my view point or beliefs despite your effort to paint that picture for your own viewing pleasure. Anyone that disagrees with you is pathetic? You are not claiming any moral high ground Winston to make such statements. Your insults and position is childish in the extreme. So you offer up insults then try to hide behind a mock attempt to be civil at the end while having the final word? You can have your melt down now…

Personal logo x42brown Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2018 5:52 a.m. PST

I can always find a way of rationalising my side as the good guys and the other side as the baddies. Sometimes the logic is tortures but I can always find a way.

x42

Edit :- Remember it's only for the duration of the game.

Personal logo miniMo Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2018 6:39 a.m. PST

Nope. When I'm playing Romans or Charlemagne , etc. I'm definitely playing the baddies. Mwa ha ha!

Personal logo Patrick R Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2018 9:40 a.m. PST

I reserve myself the right to have a low opinion of certain armies or to find redeeming qualities in others.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2018 9:51 a.m. PST

Dragon Gunner, trying to be civil to you was furthest from my mind.
You are the one who first jumped on the soapbox, bragging that you not only play the reprehensible Waffen SS, but also condemning any who would think ill of your choice.
The gauntlet was thrown down by you.
I replied. Apparently you cannot tolerate anyone disagreeing with your principled stand in favor of the SS. But such is life.

Have a good day, Sir.

PS I have no opinion on Dark Eldar, Chaos or whatever.

Dragon Gunner05 Dec 2018 9:57 a.m. PST

And you also Winston…

Korvessa05 Dec 2018 11:36 a.m. PST

My $.02 USD worth. As a front note, I don't have a local gaming group, as I live in the wilderness. I am somewhat envious of those who do have local groups.
I think every conflict has good guys and bad guys. Sometimes that line is blurrier than others. Sometimes both sides are "bad guys." Sometimes good guys are forced to become allies with bad guys because of circumstances. That doesn't suddenly make them good guys. As I mentioned in an earlier post, in WWII Finland, who were the bad guys? Your German allies or Soviet enemies? Germany, without doubt the bad guys in WWII, helped Finland keep their independence from the Soviets. I have a hard time calling the Soviets "the good guys" with all the evil they did to Finland (and others) even if they were allied to the Western allies.
To pick another era, based upon what he did to Scotland, I think Edward I was a very bad guy. Others would probably call him a good guy. And I say this as one having ancestors on both sides of that conflict.
As far as wargaming WWII goes, like many others I suppose, I like to game the battles my father was in (507th PIR). Hard to do that without fielding SS as his regiment fought them on occasion (specifically 17th SS). That doesn't mean I sympathize with them or espouse their principals. It's just a game. It never bothered my father that my brother and I played wargames.
It wouldn't bother me to play a game with someone who used an SS army. It would bother me if they came out decked in Nazi regalia. I would not play a game where the object would be do murder civilians or prisoners or similar. Nor would I play in a game that recreated the firestorm of Dresden or similar.
My father's cousin was killed in WWII, when as an US POW he was on board a ship sunk by the US – his own side (it wasn't marked). I wouldn't participate in a game that included that possibility either – even if accidental, even though I wouldn't mind participating in a Pacific Theater game.
For me, it is all about perspective. If my opponent can field an SS army and keep it in perspective, I am fine with that. If they can't, then will play something else or not at all. I am fine with that too.

Porthos05 Dec 2018 12:05 p.m. PST

Again there is the mistake of saying that playing side X is the same as supporting side X. The financiée of my uncle was transported to Auschwitz (in 1942), my grandparents on my mother's side both died of hunger in the winter of 1944/45. I was born in 1946, nine months after my father's marriage in august 1945. He had then marched for almost four months from Germany, where he had been liberated by the Canadians after two years forced labor. Perhaps I can claim a little insight in the horror of Nazy Germany ?

Still I have absolute no problem with paying SS. And when I listen to various actors, they almost always say that they LOVED playing the bad guy.
In our hobby the bad guys, exactly like the good guys, are made of tin.

Korvessa05 Dec 2018 12:36 p.m. PST

Well said Porthos

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2018 1:09 p.m. PST

There is a difference between playing a generic SS,(I still would never paint them, but could play them) and specifically wanting to paint and make the 1st SS, which was notorious even among the SS.
You might as well play Nicaraguan death squads (throw a double six and one bullet kills two civilians, bonus points)

Personal logo Sgt Slag Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2018 1:58 p.m. PST

I used to play historicals, mostly WW II. Some of the players refused to play the Nazi's. I don't care, I'll play anybody, unless it involves atrocities being recreated on the tabletop. Regular battle conflicts, I don't care who the sides are.

In fantasy games, I prefer to play the evil side. Again, several of my fellow gamers, wince at the idea. Their choice. No raping/slaughtering being portrayed on the game table, outside of miniature figures battling to the 'death' (figures picked up, and removed from play) on the tabletop, so nothing to offend me, or them, really. Portraying vile acts on the tabletop serves no useful purpose, other than to offend everyone, including me. Anyone who sought to portray atrocities on the game table, would be ostracized from the group, post haste.

I have, however, played scenarios wherein one side might execute prisoners, if the attacker failed to arrive in time. It was done as an objective which created tension, and inspired action on the attacker's part; it was not done to enjoy an atrocity. It was a game factor, to push the game along, creating a dynamism. I've done the same with countdown clocks: achieve a goal by turn X, or fail the mission… Same concept. The prisoner execution was not portrayed in gory detail. It was a time-limiting factor, as well as being used to determine success/failure criteria, for both sides. Nothing more, nothing less. Cheers!

Dragon Gunner05 Dec 2018 2:54 p.m. PST

I was going to let this go but you edited your response after I posted and walked away.

"You are the one who first jumped on the soapbox, bragging that you not only play the reprehensible Waffen SS, but also condemning any who would think ill of your choice."-Winston

Soapbox, bragging and condemning you are just over the top with your descriptive words Winston.

"The gauntlet was thrown down by you.
I replied. Apparently you cannot tolerate anyone disagreeing with your principled stand in favor of the SS. But such is life."-Winston


I made a statement and you were offended and called me evil so you threw the gauntlet ( but nice attempt to claim victim status). You are entitled to your opinion just like I am however I won't cater to your delusions. Principled stand in favor of the SS? Do you understand the concept toy soldiers are not an endorsement of a belief system or war crimes? However I would be willing to listen to a logical argument (not emotional) from you about why you are right and I am wrong.

Legion 405 Dec 2018 2:59 p.m. PST

Again there is the mistake of saying that playing side X is the same as supporting side X.
Agreed … that should be clear to anyone with some common sense.



I made a statement and you were offended and called me evil
In no way are you evil, misguided, etc. I talked about how effective and ruthlessly efficient many of the WWII German units were. And was lambasted by some … however I think the historical record should be taken into consideration.

I don't support the WWII Germans, SS, etc. in any way. But have studied and gamed their WWII performance, battles, equipment etc. As I have other WWII armies. As many have here.

Cyrus the Great05 Dec 2018 3:36 p.m. PST

Victimhood, the mantra of the late 20th and early 21st centuries usually played in a last, desperate attempt to win an argument.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2018 3:59 p.m. PST

I was not offended in the least by what you said.

When you asked, in a clearly over the top justification if you were evil, I jokingly said Yes.
You're proud of playing SS. You are belligerently proud and defiant.
You are the one claiming "victim" status. Not me.
How someone who plays SS can claim any moral high ground evades logic. But if it makes you happy, go ahead.

I would never play SS. I find the claim that playing them and endorsing them are not the same thing dubious at best.
I buy and paint all my own figures. To put that time and capital into it involves a commitment. There are plenty of wars where I painted both sides. Plenty of battles. But never will I purchase or paint for me what I consider morally bankrupt.

Would you play a game with the Derlewanger Brigade I gagged in their duties?

Dragon Gunner05 Dec 2018 5:17 p.m. PST

"When you asked, in a clearly over the top justification if you were evil, I jokingly said Yes."-Winston

Oh so now you are joking after multiple posts I am not buying it Winston nothing in the tone of your posts implied you were "joking".

"You're proud of playing SS. You are belligerently proud and defiant."-Winston

I never said I was proud of playing SS. If I am defiant then what am I defying Winston? You are reaching Winston and spinning the words for your own narrative that are not based in reality…

"You are the one claiming "victim" status. Not me."

You said I threw down the gauntlet, you responded and I could not tolerate your view point. You threw the gauntlet when you called me evil but wait now you are suddenly just joking right?

"How someone who plays SS can claim any moral high ground evades logic."-Winston

I never said I held any moral high ground there you go again Winston spinning words to fit the narrative you created in your mind. Are you still joking Winston?

"I would never play SS. I find the claim that playing them and endorsing them are not the same thing dubious at best."-Winston

Now we are getting somewhere minus the drama. I will repeat my question! Do you understand the concept toy soldiers are not an endorsement of a belief system or war crimes? However I would be willing to listen to a logical argument (not emotional) from you about why you are right and I am wrong.


Oh wait you were just joking right?

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2018 6:44 p.m. PST

If you play the Derlewanger brigade, Waffen SS, ( who disgusted even the "normal Waffen SS), then…
Look. I don't give a hoot what or who you play. Just don't throw it in my face that *I* am abnormal because I absolutely refuse to own or play Waffen SS. Yes. I DO think they aren't "just another toy".
Playing them means something and I refuse to get defensive about it.

I'm done here. If you want the last word, take it.

Personal logo StoneMtnMinis Supporting Member of TMP05 Dec 2018 8:18 p.m. PST

Dragon Gunner thumbs up

Dragon Gunner06 Dec 2018 5:08 a.m. PST

Have a great day Winston!

Legion 406 Dec 2018 5:36 a.m. PST

Victimhood, the mantra of the late 20th and early 21st centuries usually played in a last, desperate attempt to win an argument.
thumbs up snowflake

Dragon Gunner thumbs up x 2

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Dec 2018 8:04 a.m. PST

From my uncle, whose homeland was invaded by the Nazis, "Sure, I'll play that side. If no one plays them, then I don't get to see them get their ass kicked."

Korvessa06 Dec 2018 8:38 a.m. PST

Etotheipi

That's why I have some. So my dad's US Paras can whoop them!

Earl of the North06 Dec 2018 10:04 a.m. PST

I play sci-fi and fantasy so I'm happy to play the bad guys.

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