"Ancient rules recommendation" Topic

Hi everyone!

Me and my friend want to start an ancient miniature game but which one will suite or expectations?
- first of all it should be fun!!!
- it should force you to make critical decisions (not just line up and roll the dice)
- we want to play large battles (in this case DBA is a large battle)
- it should be hard to maneuver an army and forces the player to make the right decisions

Because there are so many rules, i just want to ask experienced players which rules can you recommend?
Hail Caesar, To the Strongest, Swordpoint, DBA/BBDBA or Impetus? Or something else?

Many thanks!

Try out basic Impetus you may still be able to find the first edition that was free to try out

Commands and colors ancients with DBA command pips rather than cards

DBA has the lowest model count – so if you are starting out this might be a good option to consider.

I am not familiar with Swordpoint so no opinion there.

I prefer To the Strongest over both Hail Caesar and Impetus but that is just me.

Hail Caesar and Impetus are both solid rule sets and quite popular. Dont think you can go wrong should you choose to use either.

We are having a lot of fun with ADLG and it is easy to play but hard to master (well in my case)

To the Strongest is a fun, fast and easy to learn system.

I'll second To the Strongest. It's played on a grid, so you could easily use a small grid and single elements as a unit; typically my units are 80mm frontage in 15mm, or 60mm if I'm playing 28mm.

Been playing for many years . My favorites are ADLG & Might of Arms. But MOA does not make it hard to move armies. For that you need Armati.

I prefer TTS to anything else. Hail Caesar maybe. Interested in the idea of C&C with pips.

The Colonel

I would highly recommend Sword and Spear by Polkovnik Productions. Here are some TMP links to the rules.

TMP link
TMP link

A review from another site.
link

The rules are easy to learn and games play out in 2 to 3 hours.

We play Impetus and I would highly recommend it.

I like Impetus because the mechanics are fairly simply and the structure of the game straightforward. Yet the system is surprisingly subtle and gives the player many different kinds of command choices to make. Do you risk pushing forward another movement phase and becoming disordered or taking a steady but cautious approach.

What I also like about Impetus is that it is a dynamic system so that a lot can happen in a short time. Some game systems are a bit of a grind. That can happen in Impetus but a whole command can get busted up pretty fast as well.

It is very hard to redeploy your army if you've been out deployed. The game moves fast and trying some fancy footwork in front of your opponent can get you in trouble quickly.

Large games look great on the big bases. Impetus has certainly set the standard for aesthetics in ancient gaming.

The one downside for Impetus is that you need more figures than some of the other games. So a typical 400 point army will probably have between 200-300 figures in it. The suggestion of trying Basic Impetus is probably a good idea. BI doesn't have all the chrome but it will give you a feel for what the full game has to offer.

I recommend DBA 3.
It does a great job with historical battles, campaigns, pickup games and tournaments. It is simple and produces historical results…

For examples of using it to very successfully recreate historical battles… check out this book.

"Great Battles of History for DBA 3"

Now available through On Military Matters.

link

Joe Collins

I'm really having a blast with Mortem et Gloriam (MeG). I resisted it at first because of the cards. I thought the cards might be distracting, but actually they add a lot of depth to the game. Below is why I might think you will like this game --

- first of all it should be fun!!!
Yes, in MeG, you move one unit, the your opponent moves one unit, then you do, then your opponent, and so on…The interaction makes for a fun game.

- it should force you to make critical decisions (not just line up and roll the dice)
The cards control how much activity you can do. They don't drastically limit you, but you do have to allocate cards to actions and you only have so many cards. Also, different armies can do more with less cards. The Roman army is professional and drilled. It feels different to command a Roman army as opposed to the Hun army. It's not just the weapons, but command/control as well.

- we want to play large battles (in this case DBA is a large battle)
The current game requires about 50 to 70 bases – pretty big. But there are optional rules to reduce the size of the game to 35 to 50 bases and another set for 20 to 30 bases. All games represent big battles, not skirmish battles.

- it should be hard to maneuver an army and forces the player to make the right decisions
Generals are rated as professional or instinctive. Units are rated as drilled, formed, or tribal. Depending on the combination of things you command, the cards give you more or fewer options. Cards are played during the charge phase, movement phase, and fighting phase. For example, when fighting you may want to rearrange bases in order to swing out around your opponents flanks. You will need cards to do that. Romans are easy to command. Gauls,…well, not so much.

It's a great game. Highly recommend the rules.

Another enthusiastic vote for To the Strongest!

We like and play To the Strongest. C&C with pips does sound interesting.

I've really enjoyed BBDBA; you can start with the small DBA armies and scale up later for the big battles. Also a little easier to absorb the rules when compared to DBM, etc.

Take a look at
link especially the Battle of Trebia video. This is a new set of ancient's rules that is very fun to play.
John

Here are couple of links that might interest you.
The rules are called CONQUERORS AND KINGS
They have been around a very long time, so could maybe do with an update soon. They came out in 1999.
The unusual thing about them is that they use a square grid to play on.
they meet all of your criteria; but rules really are a personal thing.
Good luck with the looking.

PDF link

peterpig.co.uk/rules.html

I'm a big fan of Command and Colours Ancients played with figures. As it is element based you can use as few or as many figures as you want but also fight entire battles.

BBDBA is my preferred set these days, either a home brew 24 element version or 36 with a house rule for limited marching.

Triumph! hits your list of requirements

Rules are available as a PDF download at wargame vault.
link

Been playing it since the original beta test and it is a great system for Ancients through early Renaissance. you can start with smaller figure count armies and scale up using a point system to build just about any size battle you like.

Main site:
wgcwar.com

over 650 historical armies with the lists available online in an easily searchable data base:
meshwesh.wgcwar.com/home#%2Fhome

Some shots from Historicon of the smaller game in 15mm (48points each side)

Grand Triumph scale in 28mm 144Points per side (Hastings)

Sword and Spear is my current favourite. The activation system does force you to make decisions about which units to activate first and what type of activation. The game can be played with a dozen DBA size bases or with much bigger armies, with each unit represented by 4 or 6 DBA sized elements. Indeed, it can be played with any basing of figures.
It can be played one on one or with two or three players per side. A very flexible system; I have played enjoyable games on a 3x3 foot table and on a 10 x 5 foot. The rules do not contain Barkerese and are easy to follow; there is even a proper index ( something sadly lacking in many of the current crop of rules) and a helpful forum. What is more, unlike some of the glossy sets, Sword and Spear does not cost an arm and a leg (about £12.00 GBP) and does not have numerous over-priced supplements; army lists are a free download.

Find a local club and see what they are playing, and then try that.

If it's just the two of you, and you are just starting Ancients its hard however to look past DBA. Everything in one book, lowest possible figure count, and the core mechanics and basing are similar/compatible with many other sets if you decide you want to scale up to in future.

Thank you all for your recommendations!

Bottom line, its als a matter of personal taste and i have to try different rules out to see which one will meet my expectations. I will start with with DBA and definitely try command & colors with pips. And as my army grows in numbers i will have a look at other games. I`m sure that all rules mentioned are good and that there`s no wrong, that`s what I take from this thread.

Thanks and happy gaming!

Starting with DBA is always good advice.
Very few models needed, and an elegant set of rules.
For larger battles, To The Strongest and Sword & Spear both give good quick games with lots of player decision making.
To The Strongest uses a grid, which speeds things up a lot.

No one mentioned so I would strongly suggest Civitates Bellantes. The only ruleset which really gives me the feeling of commanding an ancient army. At 5£ for the pdf, you can t go much wrong. Of course, now that Tattica II is miracolously out..

I would recommend Hail Caesar Rules. Hope it helps.

As always, comments are appreciated.

Take care

Andy

Impetus all the way, definitely my pick out there.

DBA 3 is a low cost and simple way to get into ancients. You only need 12 units each side so low cost of entry.

• Tony Aguilar DBA 3.0 Videos on YouTube
• $10 Sue Laflin-Barker's Start Ancient Wargaming with DBA 3.0 on Amazon
• Essex Miniatures once you decide on an army

As others have done, I can highly recommend To the Strongest!

TtS! features area grids for movement and numbered playing cards (or chits) for unit activation and combat resolution. No rulers, no dice!

The rules are basing independent and easily scalable, with grid squares typically ranging from 5cm to 20cm, and battlefields from 60cm x 40cm (2' x 1' 4") to 240cm x 180cm (8' x 6') and larger.

The core mechanics are quite simple, and yet provide for great tactical depth and decision-making.

There are numerous unit types with capabilities matching their historical counterparts.

Commanders and heroes playing a significant role in bolstering unit performance.

The rules work very well for solitaire play.

Most importantly, gameplay is fast, furious, and tremendously fun!

I think DBA is an excellent way to introduce yourself to ancient gaming. Considering your four expectations it met them for me. Doubt I would have ever played ancients otherwise.

I'll second Triumph. Played it several times at cons and enjoyed every game. The most current rules feel more streamlined and play better. Though that may just be a familiarity with the rules finally.

Completely scaleable, you can start playing right away if you ignore the minimums to army lists, but as you paint models you can add them in straight away.

So many army lists its almost hard to pick a focus! Meshwesh is a internet dark hole once you start looking at armies.

Now that Tactica II is finally published, you might want to consider it. We can finish a Large battle within about two hours and it's fun to play.

It's amazing how many different rules sets there are out there.

Then factor in all the ones that are being made and released and playtested and talked about.

It is truly overwhelming to new players. Then with older players they seem to prefer a set of rules they used to.

Perhaps there are some questions you may be able to clarify. You stated "large battles", what exactly do you mean?

Do you mean large numbers of figures? Large numbers of units? Recreation of historical battles?

Each could be a "large battle" situation, but very different on how you want the rules.

Also, are there others near you that play historical games? Are there clubs nearby? Do you have a large playing area?

If you have a large playing area and lots of disposable income, then 28mm figures may be the way to go.

If you don't have a large area maybe 15mm or 10mm figures are the way to go.

If you do not have disposable income (a lot of it) then maybe 1/72 figures are the way to go.

Again, more questions arise, if there is a community of gamers out there then maybe find out what scale and rules they are using, learn those and then see if you like them. Ask if you can use some of their figures to play instead of buying a lot of your own for the first games.

As you can see from the hugely varying responses given, everyone has their own different opinions.

There are a lot of factors for games (ie do you like heroic characters and their exploits like in Viking Sagas and Homer's Illiad – if so, then try 'Warhammer Ancient Battles' first version or version 1.5 rules, or try 'War and Conquest').

You may want to try several sets of rules and depending upon the era (you never stated what era/culture/armies you wanted to play) and different scales to represent different battles.

Always keep your first requirement in mind – make sure it is fun!

wmyers has some good advice. You may want to start with simple rules, something like Neil Thomas' Ancient and Medieval Wargaming is about as simple as you can get. Then move to DBA and see how things are different. For me, I get tired of seeing only weapons systems being considered in ancients wargames in rules after rules. That's why I'm advocating Mortem et Gloriam. It attempts to differentiate armies based on command/control, as well as weapon systems.

Donald Featherstone made the insightful comment that it really does not matter about the rules as the individual playing will instill their biases into the game.

For instance, they will play how they want/believe cavalry should act as opposed to how they really did act. These biases come from perceptions created by media (books, stories, movies, tv) as opposed to real-life experience and even if they had real-life experience it is removed from the historical and horsemanship today is not the same as it was 2000 years ago.